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The privatization of policing

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Re: The privatization of policing

#81

Post by germinalphrase »

jbotdev wrote: post #10
djha-skin wrote: post #9

As a country we have played around with private policing (the Pinkerton detective agency) after the civil war. We decided we didn't like it. Privatization of police is bad because only those with money get the benefits. What's this article does not talk about are the countless neighborhoods and streets that don't have security guards protecting them. The article puts security guards in a very pretty light and maybe t…

Well, if the problem they’re addressing is largely petty crimes against businesses like shoplifting, you really only need private security in the business districts. Preventing crime in private homes seems like it’s a much harder task for either private or public security, given the coverage area required.

Law enforcement doesn’t prevent crime (and there is no legal expectation for them to do so). They disincentives crime by seeking to punish those who previously committed a crimes, and they disincentivize vigilante justice by offering a (ideally) non-emotional legal system alternative to retribution.

Re: The privatization of policing

#82

Post by opportune »

baby wrote: post #40
lifeinthevoid wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm a bit of a small-town boy, but I find it hard to understand that a lot of people choose to live in these conditions and don't move away to somewhere quieter/safer.

SF is similar and the excuse almost always is: job opportunities. We can actually move out now that we work remotely but my SO’s salary would be decreased by her company based on change of location and she doesn’t want that. Writing that I do realize that its actually second. First reason for most people is probably just inertia.

SF is not that similar to Portland. While we have homeless people in SF their behavior is much more under control (and concentrated) than it is in Portland.

I think a lot of it is actually more “the pendulum” of attitudes towards things like homelessness and other “nuisances”. When we’re overly strict, the pendulum starts swinging back towards acceptance and laisezz faire because inevitably injustices occur and people decide to become more compassionate. When we’re overly permissive (like many west coast cities right now, though I think the opioid crisis has a big role too) the pendulum starts swinging towards cracking down.

New York has basically gone through this entire process already

Re: The privatization of policing

#83

Post by phpisthebest »

kodah wrote: post #22

I just moved to Portland and I live in SouthEast (where this article is talking about). It was a shock seeing guards dressed in the same kit I wore in Afghanistan. They're not exaggerating the homeless situation here either. There's tons, and many of them are addicted to fentanyl or meth. The political situation is exactly as they described. The county and city in Portland have a weird relationship. They're both "Pro…

It that a PPB issue or a policy of local prosecutors?

I dont know about Portland but in many "progressive" cities there is a directive to not prosecute minor property crimes (i.e car break ins, shoplifting, etc) unless there was violence involved (i.e a Car Jacking at Gun Point)

So the police have naturally reacted by not arresting anyone for those crimes, why bother to arrest them if they are just turned back out in 2 hours anyway?

Re: The privatization of policing

#84

Post by pmarreck »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #79
phpisthebest wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>hey've been unaccountable to the public, they've lied about what people do (pretending they've attacked them), they've lied about their use of force, and attacked people in tents to displace them. So a normal police force then? This is a natural reaction when property crime goes unenforced by the government. I know this will be an unpopular take but property crime like shoplifting is not a "victimless" crime agains…

[flagged]

because taxation to fund a public good is not theft

in your world there are only private security firms. if you're not up to date on your dues, oh well, they'll happily watch you get robbed I guess.

EDIT: I was unaware of the "wage theft" problem and assumed this was angling at "taxation is theft," my bad

Re: The privatization of policing

#85

Post by pleasantpeasant »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #65
detuned wrote: post #47

There was a notable absence of opposing views in the article so I looked up "echelon security portland" and found a lot of objectionable actions they've taken. According to this article https://www.opb.org/article/2021/12/02/part-two-police-prose... they've been unaccountable to the public, they've lied about what people do (pretending they've attacked them), they've lied about their use of force, and attacked people…

Yeah. My son was detecting hints of positivity in my reaction to the story; he cautioned me that the opening blurb smelled like crafted propaganda.

The author works at The Federalist Society. A conservative online magazine.

Honestly, why is this article even on HN? It's copaganda but with an even worst twist of being a pro-private military force.

The militarization of the police has been an on going issue since the 90s and now we're jumping to having corporations hiring random goons as a private police force for the wealthy and their corporations.

Re: The privatization of policing

#86

Post by pmarreck »

detuned wrote: post #47

There was a notable absence of opposing views in the article so I looked up "echelon security portland" and found a lot of objectionable actions they've taken. According to this article https://www.opb.org/article/2021/12/02/part-two-police-prose... they've been unaccountable to the public, they've lied about what people do (pretending they've attacked them), they've lied about their use of force, and attacked people…

So let me get this straight:

A few bad police apples create a mass left-wing media outrage which results in the withdrawing of a public good (police protection), which results in people needing to hire private security, which results in even more objectionable actions taken by this less-accountable private security, than there were previously by the taxpaid police force?

You don't say.

I guess the only relative improvement here is that some of these security firms aren't armed with anything more than billy clubs.

Re: The privatization of policing

#87

Post by pixl97 »

pmarreck wrote: post #84
wahnfrieden wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

because taxation to fund a public good is not theft in your world there are only private security firms. if you're not up to date on your dues, oh well, they'll happily watch you get robbed I guess. EDIT: I was unaware of the "wage theft" problem and assumed this was angling at "taxation is theft," my bad

What, you did not answer his question, and came up with some gibberish.

https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...

>What this report finds: This report assesses the prevalence and magnitude of one form of wage theft—minimum wage violations (workers being paid at an effective hourly rate below the binding minimum wage)—in the 10 most populous U.S. states. We find that, in these states, 2.4 million workers lose $8 billion annually (an average of $3,300 per year for year-round workers) to minimum wage violations—nearly a quarter of their earned wages. This form of wage theft affects 17 percent of low-wage workers, with workers in all demographic categories being cheated out of pay.

Re: The privatization of policing

#88

Post by pmarreck »

pleasantpeasant wrote: post #85
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. My son was detecting hints of positivity in my reaction to the story; he cautioned me that the opening blurb smelled like crafted propaganda.

The author works at The Federalist Society. A conservative online magazine. Honestly, why is this article even on HN? It's copaganda but with an even worst twist of being a pro-private military force. The militarization of the police has been an on going issue since the 90s and now we're jumping to having corporations hiring random goons as a private police force for the wealthy and their corporations.

[flagged]

Re: The privatization of policing

#89

Post by howinteresting »

zdragnar wrote: post #80
giraffe_lady wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's associations are part of their actions and a relevant part of the context of their writing. The commenter didn't necessarily entirely dismiss the article or the argument because of it, but it is potentially valuable information to have. It's not necessary to evaluate every work completely stripped of context to engage with it honestly. Articles are written by people, with motivations for writing them, and no…

> It's not necessary to evaluate every work completely stripped of context to engage with it honestly It is a blatant ad hominem comment that adds nothing to the discussion of whether or not the arguments in the article are valid, but rather is an attempt to prejudice your opinion.

Nothing wrong with having your priors straight.

Re: The privatization of policing

#90

Post by sethammons »

phpisthebest wrote: post #68
detuned wrote: post #47

There was a notable absence of opposing views in the article so I looked up "echelon security portland" and found a lot of objectionable actions they've taken. According to this article https://www.opb.org/article/2021/12/02/part-two-police-prose... they've been unaccountable to the public, they've lied about what people do (pretending they've attacked them), they've lied about their use of force, and attacked people…

>>hey've been unaccountable to the public, they've lied about what people do (pretending they've attacked them), they've lied about their use of force, and attacked people in tents to displace them. So a normal police force then? This is a natural reaction when property crime goes unenforced by the government. I know this will be an unpopular take but property crime like shoplifting is not a "victimless" crime agains…

[flagged]
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