How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11? • Hacker News Board

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#231

Post by nazgulsenpai » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #120

n1vz3r wrote: post #93

As a long-time Linux user with habit of throwing everything into the mix, I got quite used to number of inconsistencies that I have, so I don't think that MS deserves criticism for having them too (although article is not very critical, it just counts the inconsisitencies). I have GTK2/3/4 apps, KDE apps, Qt apps, Electron apps, AND Windows apps running under wine. So the only consistency on my desktop is an inconsis…

That's fair when it comes to apps from random sources. But KDE apps all look consistent. I don't really use it, but it seems to me that Gnome apps also are consistent. Ditto for XFCE. Whereas Windows, even among out-of-the-box and "system" applications, there's a variety in the look & feel. Until 7 it was more or less the same. But starting with 10, it all went downhill, and 11 didn't really fix anything in that depa…

While I don't blame you for purging it from your memory, you seem to have forgotten about Windows 8. It introduced the Settings concept and who can forget that start menu!

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#232

Post by jabbany » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

daemin wrote: post #109

jabbany wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole argument. This should not need to be "fixed" by a third party tool, it should just be part of the system that was already paid for! (It was even included all the way up to 10 so clearly there was no technical reason to not have it anymore) Frankly this mindset is ludicrous to me and yet I see this with MacOS users too who happily pay for third party solutions to first-party breakage on stuff you alre…

Of course not, it should not have been changed in such a way that required a third party utility. It's one of the reasons I'm still using Windows 10 and have taken steps to make sure my computers don't automatically "upgrade" to Windows 11. I'm going against the mindset of not paying for software in general, no matter how useful it is to you.

I think the problem is the contract behind what you're getting for the software.

For me personally, I'm more than happy to pay for software if it's clear the developer has _my_ interests in mind when building it (think IDEs, CAD software, even stuff like Office or the Adobe suite). I'm also OK with using software that's free and dealing with dark patterns (shareware, online tools) or bugs (open source stuff).

But paid software that somehow still tries to bilk me for even more money? (See all of the ads that have been built into Windows these days, or various Android phones and bloat) I will be more than happy to go out of my way to crack and get out of paying for it, for nothing but to spite developers of such things. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#233

Post by Uehreka » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #226

kemayo wrote: post #221

The single most "oh, Microsoft " moment I had when updating to Windows 11 is actually glossed over in this article without comment. Context menus are restyled, and also now have a "show more options" entry[1] -- if you press it, what happens? The pre-Windows-11 context menu appears. That's right. There's archeological layers of UI design in context menus now. [1] https://ntdotdev.files.wordpress.com/2022/12/image-4.p…

They also hide some of the most useful options while keeping the most useless. Rename is now one of the ones hidden by default.

It actually isn’t, but I wouldn’t blame you for thinking it was. It’s now an icon of a text cursor and a tiny text box.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#234

Post by 1970-01-01 » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

323 wrote: post #154

alentred wrote: post #30

To be fair, I think some examples, and specifically those from 95/NT and then 3.1 times, are too far-fetched. I agree that consistency is important, but it doesn't mean that every screen needs to be redesigned altogether. For instance, I don't think that examples of Screen Saver Settings or File Properties are relevant, as long as their styling is in line with the rest of the OS. One thing that surprises me a lot, th…

One universal solution that works for all apps - you render the app in an off-screen buffer and pass that to AI to re-render it in the new style. This way you don't need to touch the code. AI could also translate mouse clicks/coordinates accordingly if it moves stuff around. You could even have "UI themes", tell the AI to re-render in Windows 2000/XP/11 style. EDIT: the downvotes I'm getting with no comments are funn…

>You could even have "UI themes", tell the AI to re-render in Windows 2000/XP/11 style.

I love this idea! Having the ability to choose from decades of UI design would absolutely be a feature. However MS needs to fix all of these UI inconsistency bugs first. Second, don't use AI. Just consistently apply the UI to the OS.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#235

Post by procarch2019 » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #228

procarch2019 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That new context menu is garbage (for me). I use advanced functions regularly to the point that after a day of being on 11 it bothered me enough to figure out how to revert to showing the “advanced” (old) context menu.

How?? How can one achieve this power?

I did it so long ago, so I’m not quite sure it was this. A quick google gave me this: https://windowsreport.com/windows-11-right-click-show-all-op...

There are a few things out there, but I always trust a good ol’ registry hack over a 3rd party exe.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#236

Post by nikanj » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

flohofwoe wrote: post #195

323 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One universal solution that works for all apps - you render the app in an off-screen buffer and pass that to AI to re-render it in the new style. This way you don't need to touch the code. AI could also translate mouse clicks/coordinates accordingly if it moves stuff around. You could even have "UI themes", tell the AI to re-render in Windows 2000/XP/11 style. EDIT: the downvotes I'm getting with no comments are funn…

Since you're asking for 'downvote comments': UI themeing had already been solved decades ago, there's absolutely no need to bring AI into play for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in the first place - on the other hand I get the impression that this is the one thing that AI is really good at ;) But back to the topic: The reason why UIs are no longer themeable has zero technical reason, instead it's a cultur…

There is clearly a need: adding AI gets your company funding, looks great on your CV and lets you brag to the board that your AI strategy is moving along

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#237

Post by kemayo » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

Uehreka wrote: post #233

encryptluks2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also hide some of the most useful options while keeping the most useless. Rename is now one of the ones hidden by default.

It actually isn’t, but I wouldn’t blame you for thinking it was. It’s now an icon of a text cursor and a tiny text box.

Huh, I'll admit that I hadn't even noticed that button-ribbon at the top of the context menu yet. :D

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#238

Post by kevingadd » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

FeistySkink wrote: post #159

kevingadd wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm used to Ubuntu updates breaking my workflow and potentially breaking some of my boot services, which is genuinely inconvenient. So I don't think those vocal few are wrong.

What does this have to do with GNOME?

Ubuntu defaults to GNOME for its desktop environment?

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#239

Post by encryptluks2 » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #140

petepete wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how the huge silent majority get on just fine with GNOME but the vocal few act like the devs have poked them in the eye and called their mother fat.

And they are really angry about it! I use GNOME, it's not great, but some people really hate it, go out of their way to tell everybody how pissed they are at it and that GNOME is the worst thing to have ever happened to the Linux world. I guess complaining about GNOME has become part of their identity, a trait shared by the vocal systemd haters that just won't shut up about it. Many Linux users haven't gone past the…

Hating shows their lack of skills. They are the kind that know just enough to complain but lack any significant skills when it comes to development. They probably work in some point and click system administrator job. Eventually they either learn they can lead the change they want to see in open source and shut up because they aren't willing to do it, or they keep throwing a fit like a baby thinking that'll help them get their way.

Re: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 11?

#240

Post by hyperdimension » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

rhdunn wrote: post #200

hajile wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This MS inconsistency is entirely the fault of MS. You could build thousands of KDE environments with the amount of money MS spends on Windows, yet KDE has managed to update everything across 5 versions of their desktop environment. In fact, EVERY common operating system GUI with the exception of Windows manages to update all the things. If MS had spent some of those billions on updating those legacy apps each genera…

Part of the complexity is that there are Win32 APIs that allow applications to add UI to the Windows 95/2000-style control panels. In order to keep compatibility with those applications/code the control panels need to be kept around. It may be possible to provide an updated UI while still allowing the existing APIs and applications to work and integrate with the control panel, but it is not straightforward.

An example: the TrackPoint tab in the Mouse Control Panel applet on a Thinkpad.