Live data from Hacker News

The internet wants to be fragmented

noahpinion.substack.com

221–230 of 246 posts

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#221
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem is that you can make money from the internet. The internet was more about self-expression and fun. Then people realized they can sell things or themselves (being a "content-creator", "thought-leader", etc.). As a result the most active people are tailoring their actions towards increasing engagement, getting you to buy something, getting you to think a certain way, etc. and we have a divide betwee…

I would say the biggest problem is advertising. It would be much less harmful if commercial content was upfront about asking for your wallet, and the transaction ended there (the publisher's incentives are directly aligned with the end-customer's). Instead, we have stuff that's technically "free" but actually comes with plenty of strings attached such as mismatched incentives - the content is only there as bait and t…

The reason surveillance capitalism will always win out is because with direct payments people only have to pay for something once.

Even if (and I hope this never happens) we had some "perfect system" where every website was automatically paid some fee every time there was a page view, the companies behind those websites would lose money on that deal.

If I own example.com and you click a link to www.example.com/somepage.html and after I serve you that page your bank account automatically transfers some small fee to me, that's the end of the transaction. You'd be done paying! Why would I want that when with surveillance capitalism you will continue to pay for the rest of your life?

If I collect huge amounts of your personal information, then sure, I can make money by using it to push ads in your face (and I will), but after I do that I still have all your data. I can leverage that later in any way that benefits me. I can use it manipulate you into loading more pages on my website, I can use it to safely increase the prices of things you buy from me, I can sell and resell that same data, in whole or in part, over and over to anyone who wants it. Combined with data about others it becomes even more valuable too.

You. on the other hand, will deal with the consequences of that data being used against you for your entire life. It will be used by scammers to try to trick you. It will be used by the state to control and monitor you. It will be used by other companies to take more of your money. It will be used by advertisers to manipulate you. It will be used against you in courts. It will be used against you by employers. You will never stop paying. You'll pay in ways you never imagined and in ways that aren't possible now, since your data will still be there when they become possible later. When consumers spend the rest of their lives endlessly paying for everything they have and everything they do it means more wealth and power for the few at the top.

Unless your new universal micropayments system can do all that, why would corporations switch to it?

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference, as the article mentions, is that you can just leave. You can follow the same content from another instance with other rules and not be effected by any of the weird laws on the main mastodon instance.

Do other people have to refollow you if you move? Can your client form a single timeline when you’re “actually” following from two different places? It seems inconvenient…

Yes, you can move your account.

though I dont know if you can still move if your account gets banned.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#223
> People call Twitter an indispensable public space because it’s the “town square”, but in the real world there isn’t just one town square, because there isn’t just one town. There are many.

The Internet is simply following our current Globalist trend, where yes, there may be different physical towns, but there is only one acceptable way to think about the world, one acceptable form of government, and one acceptable set of morals.

Cities are becoming harder to distinguish since every new building looks the same. The same shops and chains are available. The clothing is the same. These aren't different town squares. These are the global monoculture made manifest. The Internet is simply another small part of this larger trend.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#224
post #9

I found myself agreeing with every word of this article. The penultimate paragraph summarizes it well: > People call Twitter an indispensable public space because it’s the “town square”, but in the real world there isn’t just one town square, because there isn’t just one town. There are many. And the internet works when you can exit — when you can move to a different town if you don’t like the mayor or the local cult…

Same here. The biggest annoyance for me was whenever people use the “town square” analogy, especially as a Brit. The idea that my “town square” is owned by a private American company is a nightmare.

Go to the average British town square and tell me how many logos you can spot of American owned companies.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#225

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

[flagged]

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#226

> weirdos mad about video game journalism. Funny how being interested in accountability, transparency and good journalism makes you "a weirdo" worth ignoring. Oh well, if you're moderately effective about highlighting a problem you'll always get attacked with labels. Funny too how he lumps them and other groups with "Nazis". Feels like yet another person who is suddenly whining because their authoritarian websites ar…

>The Elon musk takeover has been very positive Of course it has. Twitter stopped censoring neonazis and harassment and started censoring things Musk doesn't like. >authortiarians from any side. It's all about censoring ideas they don't like How ironic

He's doing very similar things than what other authortiarians were. Censoring what he doesn't like or doesn't follow his ideology.

Problem is, the people who agree with doing this before are mad because now it's against them.

It's a positive.

As for the NNs labels. Well, it's the typical scaremongering argument that holds no water when you realize that, again, people will be inconsistent about who they apply X labels too and why they should be censored.

As for your ironic comment, it's really not. You can't call out hypocrisy on me because my stance has not changed. I'll give you the opportunity to speak and them. I'll call out your censorship and their censorship.

I would've hoped the guy in the article and many who foam at the mouth about EM and NN realized that "censorship was bad all along, we shouldn't have done it because it can turn against us" but alas, it wasn't meant to be.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#227

> weirdos mad about video game journalism. Funny how being interested in accountability, transparency and good journalism makes you "a weirdo" worth ignoring. Oh well, if you're moderately effective about highlighting a problem you'll always get attacked with labels. Funny too how he lumps them and other groups with "Nazis". Feels like yet another person who is suddenly whining because their authoritarian websites ar…

> Funny how being interested in accountability, transparency and good journalism makes you "a weirdo" worth ignoring. Yes, that’s correct, because video game journalism literally doesn’t and can’t ever matter, so it doesn’t matter if it’s bad or not. Just like it doesn’t matter that tech gadget journalism or boat owner journalism is bad.

"doesn't matter" to you. Who are you to judge what does and doesn't? You can say the same thing about pretty much anything and yet, calling corruption and conflicts of interest in any business or organization is absolutely relevant for anyone who interacts with it.

There's also the fact that journalists switch topics and industries and the behaviours are not limited to one industry. The problems I mentioned and access journalism are absolutely prevalent in politics journalism, which I doubt you'd say "doesn't matter"

So your argument is just a poor attempt to dismiss a subject in a disingenuous way. The dismissive and rude label applied is just the cherry on top.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#228

It's going to be paradise when we can find our natural best friends AT SCALE Here's my second most recent idea on how to do it, haven't written up the latest yet: http://zeroprecedent.com/A%E2%9D%AF%E2%9D%AEON%20deck%20v.3....

"Machine learning will help you find your best friends."

Yes, but how? How will it avoid optimizing on the wrong thing?

"It will gather a lot of data and then use algorithms to predict your affinities from it."

Yes, but how? What algorithm would do that? Ordinary recommender systems, neural networks, something else? And tight knit communities of close friends rarely have a lot of churn, but at-scale systems often do - how will it reconcile these tendencies?

I guess I was looking for something a little more like a research paper.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#229
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

toxic positivity Positively toxic echo chambers. I think you summed it up perfectly. I've seen what you described occur in the past on other chat platforms and forums. Mostly forums. People that think alike get some high rank and access to private sub-forums and people that have thoughts not aligned with the tribe start to think the forum is no longer being used. Not sure how that would translate into the Mastodon pl…

Meh. What's wrong with not wanting every online space I inhabit to be embroiled in ceaseless no-holds-barred political and social warfare? If I want that, it's easy to find, it doesn't have to be everywhere.

I think there is a spectrum of social behavior. The extreme bubble or silo is in my opinion just as toxic as the extreme toxicity of fringe ideas. There is probably a balance in there somewhere so that people can stay clear of social warfare and at the same time people can feel comfortable to be themselves and not have to wear a mask or have highly measured speech.

I honestly do not know how to achieve that balance. I think platforms that come close to having a balance still end up with people having to know their audience and have measured speech to some degree. Even HN is an example of that. It's probably the best balance I have seen but I have no idea how it could be made better other than having millions of small stand-alone self hosted platforms but then we move closer to those echo-chamber bubbles.

This is just my personal preference but I would not want to be in an echo chamber. If everyone just agreed with me all the time I would start to feel like I am in a room full of NS5 robots iRobot movie reference. "One of us..." That to me would be just as dystopian as being in a room full of fighting tribes. But that is just my own take on things. Perhaps it is a generational + personality tainted preference on my part.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#230
post #94
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem is that you can make money from the internet. The internet was more about self-expression and fun. Then people realized they can sell things or themselves (being a "content-creator", "thought-leader", etc.). As a result the most active people are tailoring their actions towards increasing engagement, getting you to buy something, getting you to think a certain way, etc. and we have a divide betwee…

The Internet is television with lower production value and longer commercials.

>The Internet is television with lower production value and longer commercials.

This is upside-down. In the old days stuff went to you: you had to tune in at 8p to see your show, you had to sit through or mute the commercial breaks every 8 or whatever minutes, which by the way are synced across every channel to punish people who try to tune it out.

It was a nightmare. There were no podcasts, 2 hours of unedited conversation; you had people wearing a ton of makeup screaming at each other and interrupting with one-liner quips. You had no ad blockers.

No. Way.

If you suffer ads online and getting mediocre content then the good news is it's under your control.

Post reply on HN