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The MicroPHP Manifesto

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41–50 of 78 posts

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#41

This post bothers me a lot, because it misrepresents a very large movement in American music while at the same time decrying the value of community-developed frameworks. Black Flag is a great band, but their "fast and simple" approach to playing music ran into a lot of the same problems that tech startups find when they, too, decide to take a "fast and simple" approach to web development -- those being high employee…

Great points. I would also contrast the Black Flag with Ian MacKaye's body of work: start off with fast and simple (Minor Threat), but move on when it becomes trite (Embrace, then Fugazi). Fugazi created some of the most interesting, complex music I've ever heard, but it was borne out of that initial minimalism.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#42
Using the right tool for the job comes to mind here, but half the time you can only see this with hindsight. And the other half the time, I'd guess, PHP is the only tool available. Unless cheap webhosts offer Python, Ruby and Node.js integration to complement the usual feature-set.

If you have more tools in the box, then you can start to consider whether to go full-stack with PHP (I'd no longer consider this route a viable option), or whether to modularise your project. Maybe for a lot of things that's too much and a PHP framework that does it all is totally fine. No point doing something just because you can, but you have the flexibility to think outside of the box when refactoring.

This is exactly what I did when it came to generating an image and manipulating the output. In PHP it was convoluted, buggy, impossible to understand the library it depended upon, and offered no flexibility. It took months of procrastination and avoidance before we had to get the feature working, so I ditched the lot and re-did it in Python, using Cyclone and a couple of lightweight libs. It took a day and a half to implement, with no knowledge beforehand, and it does absolutely everything we wanted (without any hacks).

It was at that point I realised that it was much more beneficial to look beyond the one-size-fits-all solution of a massive framework, which may be appropriate to some, but just as often isn't. And as has been said - very well indeed I must add - I don't want to be a [framework]-developer who knows not so much the language, but an individual or group's abstraction of it; I want to be a developer who knows what to do when that framework doesn't fit.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#43
Yeah, well, I can sympathize with the sentiment, but here's the problem:

> I want less code, not more

If been coding web apps since the mid-90's, and I've pretty much had it with either re-inventing the wheel or scouring the internet for bits and pieces of libraries. Big fat frameworks allow me to focus on the code I need to do something new.

I have no time to fuck about trying to compensate for all the bits and pieces those lightweight frameworks conveniently left out in order to be lightweight. The end result is inevitably just more code to maintain instead of less.

I get my punk rock kicks from writing shell scripts and the odd quick & dirty hacks, not complex web applications.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#44
post #34

"The MicroPHP Manifesto" is actually "The Lone Programmer Manifesto". Programming in today's world means working with other people's code. All a framework does is provide a set of design patterns and standards that a group of programmers can adhere to. This encourages code reuse and allows you as a programmer to create "black boxes" - components with a well defined programming interfaces that behave in a consistent &…

This is a similar drawback I see to microframeworks. You end up having to either roll the bits you didn't get from the framework or build a more complete framework out of other components. This can create dependency hell if you're not careful/make the wrong choices as well.

Choosing simple tools for complex jobs can get you in just as bad of a place as choosing complex tools for simple jobs.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#45
post #19

I think OP is entirely missing the point of these frameworks. Zend Framework is probably the most enterprise-y PHP framework out there (vast amount of OOP patterns used, things copied from Java, heavy using of interfaces, etc) and if you don't like writing that kind of applications you shouldn't use it. It seems to me that what he is trying to do is something like setting up a simple contact form using Java, Spring a…

If you've ever seen Rush live, Neil Peart actually plays every piece of kit he has. Its all basically necessary based on the music rush plays.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#46
My resolution regarding php this year: no new php projects. I will continue to support existing projects/clients but from here forward I am done. I have studied other languages extensively and even worked on relatively interesting personal projects in them (racket/node js etc.) but now is the time to draw the line and start using them for new projects. My last argument for using php in which hosting is easier/cheaper w/ php is moot now. So I am left with the realization that I keep reaching for it like a kid who still watches pokemon instead of doing his chemistry homework.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#47
post #41

This post bothers me a lot, because it misrepresents a very large movement in American music while at the same time decrying the value of community-developed frameworks. Black Flag is a great band, but their "fast and simple" approach to playing music ran into a lot of the same problems that tech startups find when they, too, decide to take a "fast and simple" approach to web development -- those being high employee…

Great points. I would also contrast the Black Flag with Ian MacKaye's body of work: start off with fast and simple (Minor Threat), but move on when it becomes trite (Embrace, then Fugazi). Fugazi created some of the most interesting, complex music I've ever heard, but it was borne out of that initial minimalism.

Fugazi is also a good point because their goal as an organization is sustainability. This is exhibited in their $5-or-bust ticket price, among other things. Black Flag's goal, particularly during the Decline of Western Civilization years, was mostly to get drunk and fight cops. Just a bad analogy in general for software intended to make money.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#48
I've played only a four piece since 1990 or so and it will never run out of possibilities for me. A larger kit means things need to be farther away from you, and if things are too far away there's no point in having them, so in any studio I take that second tom off the rack and move the ride cymbal right in, and it feels great.

In that way I guess a four piece kit reminds me of lisp - just some parenthesis and a few other things, but endless possibilities nonetheless. But I've never used lisp for anything really and in software I always like to shoot for a happy medium of scale and pragmatism. Also Neal Peart's setup is part of the entertainment value. EJB or some overgrown PHP thing, on the other hand, not very entertaining.

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#49

I think this is a great and thought-provoking post. The movement toward smaller, decoupled and interoperable libraries in the PHP community is in general a good thing. But without a widely adopted PHP package-management system using many micro libraries becomes more complex to manage than a big all-in-one framework. We need something like NPM for PHP. Maybe PEAR 2 can get us there.

You mean like composer http://packagist.org/?

Re: The MicroPHP Manifesto

#50
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Probably my biggest issue with CakePHP (what I use) is that when you step outside the standard use cases you fall down a rabbit hole of complexity and peculiar idioms. The result here is that one becomes a "Cake developer" rather than a "PHP developer"; there is a high degree of lock-in and switching the entire toolset becomes difficult and impractical. Totally agree. But that's because of poor design in CakePHP (I…

Please explain reasoning behind CakePHP having a poor design. I'm curious as most people that say a framework or tool sucks actually are just using the framework/tool in an incorrect way, and there is frequently an elegant way to tackle their issues. This applies to more than just CakePHP, mind you.

Sure, but you don't always have the time to figure out what that elegant way is. This is the reason people complain about the complexity of frameworks.
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