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The internet wants to be fragmented

noahpinion.substack.com

141–150 of 246 posts

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#141
I tend to agree with the conclusions of the article but at the same time I think it leaves out a few important factors in comparing the old internet versus today's internet.

First, the political macro backdrop. The extreme political polarization in the US leading to the so-called culture wars. This is a massive driver of toxicity on social media. This conflict machine is relatively new, people fondly remember centralized social media as being far less "political" just a few years ago.

Second, the mobile revolution. Which leads to a dumbing down of engagement. Before, people would sit behind a PC with a large screen and functional keyboard, enabling deep engagement as seen here on HN. Today, people sit on the toilet, look at a tiny screen with endless content, and any engagement (most never engage at all) is very shallow and lazy: a like, a retweet. It's not a conversation, it's amplification. In the rare case where somebody produces original content (a self-composed tweet), Twitter's format incentivizes hot takes and makes context and nuance impossible or impractical.

Third, amplification. It's a specific choice by Twitter (UX, algorithms) to promote and reward the worst opinions. It's a complete inversion from real life.

Hence, rather than stating that human conversation absolutely does not scale, I'd refine that conclusion. It does not scale in these particular conditions.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#142

Being the same person online as offline destroyed everything great about the internet. When you were an asshole you got banned from the website, and then you had to trim some of your sharp edges off so you didn't get banned from the next one. These days being an asshole results in either you aurrou ding yourself entirely with other assholes or getting your real life ruined by losing your job or even being arrested in…

I think you're exactly right.

In my youth, the internet was about having fun, about being INTERESTING, even if your mom or your boss wouldn't understand. And you could always just walk away from your Buffy Xanga and get into something else.

Now, the language of ridiculous places like LinkedIn has become the norm, on pain of having your life derailed.

"HI MY NAME IS JOHN (HE/HIM), I LIVE AND BREATHE ENTERPRISE SALES SUPPORT IN THE THRILLINGLY DYNAMIC ECOSYSTEM OF SAAS, MY DREAM EVER SINCE I WAS A CHILD WAS TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT WORK, I WEAR MANY HATS, MY DOG IS MY SON, IT WAS A BLESSING TO ATTEND THE BLACK EYED PEAS CONCERT, SINCERE THANKS TO UNITED PETROLEUM AND ALSO TO ROSA PARKS"

I return again and again to the scene with the construction worker neighbor from Office Space:

Peter: "does anyone ever say to you 'sounds like someone has a case of The Mondays?'

Neighbor: "No, man. Shit, no, man! I believe you'd get your ass kicked saying something like that"

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly what “spending your time dealing with advertising” means. See also cigarettes and food products with the labels turned out. Soap operas are literally named after advertising. At least they’re honest about it.

TV is minimum 1/3 time advertising, 2/3 content, but that is ignoring shilling and product placement in the content. I do not spend anywhere near 1/3rd of my time on the internet figuring out what is and is not advertising. Mostly by avoiding content with images and video.

I'd say 1/4 advertising, 2/3 content and 1/12 opening and closing credits but I take your point.

I don't know if you've tried to search for anything on the internet lately, but I've found that any time I'm trying to be an active rather than a passive consumer of the internet, it's getting damned hard to avoid things that are 'SEO optimized' and relevant content pessimized.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#145
post #25

Now the article was only talking about twitter and social media, but I can't help react on the title since there really is no evidence at all of internet wanting to be fragmented. In fact it's just the opposite. - Not even the most hardcore people are using IRC anymore - All web hosting is now in the cloud - There's basically only two rendering engines left, of which one is at the moment extremely marginalized - GIT…

I rarely use IRC any more and I used to run some small IRC servers. Most moved to Discord but I refuse to use such platforms for their abuse of retaining both text and voice transcription chat history forever. Discord voice transcription can run silently in any public or private channel and nobody can prove otherwise. This was not impossible on IRC but far less likely. Public channels were recorded with publicly visi…

Hiii, I'm the person who made devzat.

Devzat supports a "private" mode in which only some IDs you specify in the config file are allowed to join. In that mode, it disables the 16 message backlog on #main too. It seems like that would be a good option for you, but it looks like you're having the people you know gen new SSH keys every time (which is what IDs are based on). I'm curious why.

Would you have liked a standalone preference for whether to have a backlog? What features would you like / what things could be improved?

Always interesting to see how devzat is being used.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#146

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

What about upvoting and downvoting in hn? Do you find that to be positive?

Personally, I find I have to work to not write striking statements because I know they give me chance of getting a ton of upvotes. If I’m tired, the temptation is harder to resist

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#147

The entire problem lies with the twisted motives of social media. They don't want to make you happy or feel good, they want money, at all costs which results in you being angry and toxic. I agree with this article in general, and think that its worth it to spend time arguing with people you care about rather some rando on twitter. community run communities will probably have a resurge, the problem is the tech barrier…

Adding to this, having run small communities I can see platforms like Mastodon growing into Twitter albeit with a different twist of behavior but eventually becoming equally toxic, just a different flavor of toxic. I believe one of the root causes is that the internet basically connected billions of people from many different cultures into one big pool without any arbiter mechanisms which is bound to get ugly fast. I…

I think Mastodon has the tendency to grow into the opposite extreme of toxicity: fragility. People as well as instances are very generously blocked, leading to perfectly peaceful bubbles.

Which are not that great. There's almost perfect ideological agreement...but not really. A handful of people dominate conversation by posting frequently whilst the rest barely engages and/or is afraid to speak their mind.

As an example, on a fairly large Mastodon instance I saw a popular user claiming how we should still wear masks. There were a few dozen replies, all in perfect agreement.

That's truly bizarre, as this is a topic that people have strong opinions on across the entire political landscape. Even amidst just progressives, there's no uniform consensus, granted people are free to speak their minds without repercussions. The fact that there wasn't even a hint of disagreement or nuance I find telling.

So I agree with your point, this too is a type of toxicity, just a different flavor. Fragility, toxic positivity, I'm not sure what to call it, but it's not healthy.

Another fun opposite effect (in comparison to Twitter) to reason about is algorithms and amplification. Mastodon has very little of that which is considered good. It's a more "organic" social network.

Quite a few users will discover though that an organic social network makes the chance of getting engagement on your posts even harder than it already was. Just getting your post seen at all is a challenge, and building somewhat of a following can takes months if not years of purposeful effort. This means that for the typical user, the feeling that you're screaming into the void will be common, leaving the question: why post at all?

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#148

If twitter dies, where do I find a site where I can follow at least one expert/leader in every major discipline/social/political-movement to get a sort of snapshot of what's happening in the world? I don't need to agree with every expert/leader, I just want to know what they think.

There's no singular replacement currently that meets those conditions. Which is also the one thing almost guaranteeing Twitter's survival.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#149
post #110

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

Imo there's dimensions to which different systems let users express themselves. 1. The like button (e.g. Twitter) [1 dimension, discrete] 2. Clapping (e.g. Medium) [1 dimension, (kinda-)cotinuous] 2. Upvote/downvote (e.g. Reddit) [1 dimension, 2 directions, discrete] 3. Preset reactions (e.g. iMessage) [multiple dimensions, discrete] 4. Any emoji reaction (e.g. Slack) [(kinda-)infinite dimensions, discrete] 5. User-d…

I've always wondered why someone hasn't created what I call the 'orange slice' expression button. Much like cutting an orange in half it gives a preset amount of positive and negative values. Sort of a play off the meta moderation that Slashdot did.

For positive values it you could have something like

[I believe this is truthful], [I like this content],[Funny],[Positive message]

and for negative values

[I believe this is false/untruthful],[I dislike this content],[Sad/hateful],[Something else negative I can't think of at the moment?]

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#150
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRC has had encryption for a very long time. IRCS is typically on port 6697 but some admins also have it listen on 443 for people behind fascist firewalls. anyone in IRC chat can still record everything just fine I addressed this. Yes, someone can invite a bot in a channel they control and the channel operators can kick/ban a bot. Also people can achieve E2EE encryption using OTR. So in fact there are two layers of e…

>IRC has had encryption for a very long time. IRCS is typically on port 6697 but some admins also have it listen on 443 for people behind fascist firewalls. Transit encryption maybe, but admins can still read everything.

Yup like I mentioned there are modules that allow snooping. This is why if people truly want privacy they need to use a client that supports OTR add-ons providing end-to-end encryption. Pidgin is one of them.

Another option would be for each small circle of friends to run their own uMurmur or ngircd servers, then at worst the admin would spy on their friends. ngircd can be spun up in a few minutes, even faster if one already has some LetsEncrypt keys for a domain. uMurmur can also be spun up super fast on a linux home router.

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