The internet wants to be fragmented • Hacker News Board

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#81

Post by LinuxBender » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

ilyt wrote: post #78

LinuxBender wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely use IRC any more and I used to run some small IRC servers. Most moved to Discord but I refuse to use such platforms for their abuse of retaining both text and voice transcription chat history forever. Discord voice transcription can run silently in any public or private channel and nobody can prove otherwise. This was not impossible on IRC but far less likely. Public channels were recorded with publicly visi…

Uh, IRC didn't even had encryption and anyone in IRC chat can still record everything just fine. That's so weird thing to have issue with.

IRC has had encryption for a very long time. IRCS is typically on port 6697 but some admins also have it listen on 443 for people behind fascist firewalls.

anyone in IRC chat can still record everything just fine

I addressed this. Yes, someone can invite a bot in a channel they control and the channel operators can kick/ban a bot. Also people can achieve E2EE encryption using OTR. So in fact there are two layers of encryption, one of which individuals control and the IRC admin has no visibility into. There is an unsupported OTR custom client for Discord but it is against the terms of service.

Discord on the other hand has visibility into everything and no way for users to know this. Anything said on Discord in text or voice is a permanent transcription record. People are made to believe they can delete messages, but they are just flagged as deleted in Cassandra.

If I want a private voice conversation with someone or a group, I invite them to my private uMurmur server. There are clients for workstations and cell phones. Some people won't use such things and those are not people I would likely ever talk to anyway.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#82

Post by nonrandomstring » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #51

nonrandomstring wrote: post #46

One of the most frightening bits of social science/philosophy I heard came from Slavoj Zizek, because it's about harbingers of big change. I have tried in vain to find a written reference. It's buried within some of his often tediously tangential talks - but I would love to know if any former Yugoslavians can attest to the truth or falsity of it. Zizek said that the former Yugoslavia was a tense but stable amalgam fo…

Escalating racial and ethnic hate was lead up to war. Just like, before Russia attacked now, the anti Ukrainian propaganda went up. And before WWII, nazi went up with hate and their anti Jews language went up both in lead up to war and during ir, culminating in holocaust.

> Escalating racial and ethnic hate was lead up to war.

That's exactly what I'd think. And historically I'd wager every well documented example shows it.

And yet Zizek gave that as a first hand account (that's where he is from please correct me if I am wrong), and it's an intriguing hypothesis. Certainly an unpopular one judging by my immediate down-vote for even mentioning it (as an open question no less)

I don't think he was talking about "hate". He was talking about open acceptance of difference. That's what it seems is getting ever less permissible - and that's what I find concerning.

Can we no longer make that distinction? Are we too timid to even discuss that? Is that what social media has done to us?

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#83

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

superkuh wrote: post #64

Hah. Good joke website gets the point across. I cannot connect to or load https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-internet-wants-to-be-f... from my comcast home IP. I can only load it by tunneling through one of my VPSes. Definitely fragmentation.

[deleted]

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#84

Post by doublerabbit » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

amadeuspagel wrote: post #71

ilyt wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But lack of downvotes mixes "just average takes not worth a upvote" with "this guy is obviously a moron, why I'm even seeing his comments together with other competent people?"

That's why upvotes and downvotes should be shown separately.

I feel the better approach would be where if you wish to downvote you must give a reason for the downvote.

This would eliminate the snowball effect.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#85

Post by lapcat » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #60

paulryanrogers wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speech is also about comfort and venting where echo chambers shine. And those chambers predate the social media. IME even IRL people tend to congregate mostly with like minded individuals. And if the congregation turns out to have too many views in contrast to ones own then folks tend to leave.

> even IRL people tend to congregate mostly with like minded individuals Historically, forming these tiny niche communities wasn't possible. Sure you had different social groups but they were geographically limited. You are also stuck to a degree when there is conflict. > if the congregation turns out to have too many views in contrast to ones own then folks tend to leave. Sure and it tends to be moderate people who…

> Historically, forming these tiny niche communities wasn't possible.

Friends?

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#86

Post by lapcat » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

nickthegreek wrote: post #52

lapcat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) "Speaking up" is just one of many forms of speech. Why is speaking up "the purpose of speech", or even the purpose of social media speech? 2) There are many reasons to speak up. One may be to organize like-minded people into an effective advocacy group. Another may just be to lament something that you can't change. 3) I'm not trying to be snarky, but do you have any examples of changing people's minds on HN or soc…

I’ve had my mind changed due to HN. But the posters of comments would never know. I’ll give them an upvote and move on.

> I’ve had my mind changed due to HN.

Do you have an example?

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#87

Post by ROTMetro » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #4

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

Finally, big geek brains are going to get applied to this problem. Maybe we can come up with some algorithms to improve this experience! I was hoping this demographic would do something to fix the problems created... the last time this demographic tried to fix this and created these problems. ( glad to see such humility and self awareness on what made internet toxic in this discussion).

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#88

Post by feet » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #58

falcolas wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does someone’s position need to change? That implies that somebody is wrong, and that’s not necessarily the case. More often, the “wrongness” comes from having a different point of view. For example, it’s easy to say “fuck cars” when you live in the city and they are only polluting, noisy nuisances that are, at best, optional for living your life. But when you live where I do, not having a car means a significant…

Great example, because people saying "fuck cars" probably aren't talking about your cars or your situation. They mean the cities. They too have a different point of view. What discussion is good at is allowing us to talk about topics even with differing points of view, but a like/dislike button only rewards or disuades what you said. There is no opportunity for the meeting of minds, and it makes an echochamber. Had y…

Generally from my experience, people saying "fuck cars" aren't just talking about cars alone. They're talking about all poorly designed towns, cities, and infrastructure that completely cater to cars while disregarding the necessity of human movement, transportation, and health.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#89

Post by burnished » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 6:11 PM UTC

giardini wrote: post #72

causality0 wrote: post #44

Being the same person online as offline destroyed everything great about the internet. When you were an asshole you got banned from the website, and then you had to trim some of your sharp edges off so you didn't get banned from the next one. These days being an asshole results in either you aurrou ding yourself entirely with other assholes or getting your real life ruined by losing your job or even being arrested in…

aurrou ding !? Is this a new Australian metaphor?

Think it was intended to be surrounding

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#90

Post by waspight » Sun, Jan 01, 2023, 6:12 PM UTC

In the spirit of the article, how do you start your own community these days? I think it was phpbb that was popular last time I checked (perhaps 15 y ago).