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Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

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Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#71
post #7

This was me years ago. The short answer is: contract work. Consulting or freelance. This is the way to get experience without having to struggle with finding a salaried position. How do you find opportunities? Go to LinkedIn, search for staffing companies, and message their recruiters letting them know you are available. They will ask for a resume. However, a contractors/consultant resume is different than a salaried…

Is it easy to find the right freelance? I think there are stuff that I can do well, however I don't even know if a freelance job would be too difficult for me or not. There are bunch of web development jobs but it is an area that I'm not good at

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#72
post #7

This was me years ago. The short answer is: contract work. Consulting or freelance. This is the way to get experience without having to struggle with finding a salaried position. How do you find opportunities? Go to LinkedIn, search for staffing companies, and message their recruiters letting them know you are available. They will ask for a resume. However, a contractors/consultant resume is different than a salaried…

Genuine question: how is he expected to contract/consult/freelance as a hobbyist with 0 YOE? Outside of race to the bottom Fiver gigs that you probably don't want a lot of good contract work is more "getting shit done" than salary roles; which usually requires selling yourself with a track record/network.

Personally I'd just ship some crapware on the app store of your choice and spin it as a 'venture'. As others have noted always nice when they can play with your skinner box rather than glaze over when they see a Makefile.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Passing a coding challenge is easy Something must be wrong with me then because I've been programming for decades in multiple areas productively, but successfully completing three leetcode medium/hard within 45 minutes while also talking through my thought process is not something I'd call easy. > so don't focus on them at all I'd suggest most people aren't going to get past the first level if they follow this advi…

Might it be fair to say that Leetcode as a proxy for much real world programming is like using heavy duty mental arithmetic to judge one's quality as a research mathematician? I think doing some Leetcode type challenges are important at some point - they open a door in your brain around problem solving, but that door tends to stay open thus grinding those challenges to me offers diminishing returns - if people get mo…

leetcode is a horrible proxy for evaluating critical thinking ability - it's simply performative measure of "preparation" and the ability to regurgitate on-demand. at least that's my take after a few decades in the game.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#74

Job experience is a cheap proxy for the ability to get things done : if you've had multiple programming jobs, then you've probably been able to get things done and so hiring you is a safe choice. The absence of programming job experience doesn't mean you can't get things done, it just means you need to demonstrate to employers that you can get things done in other ways. You don't need to do a bootcamp (and I'd argue…

We may think coding challenges are easy - but after interviewing many "senior" engineers I've found that it's very helpful to have _some_ sort of coding as part of the interview. Algorithm and Data Structures based questions are not really popular, but they are at least a known quantity and can be studied for as a candidate. I prefer more realistic scenario type coding interviews (ie implement a new feature, fix a bu…

imo falling back on those kinds of code challenges indicate a lack of imagination and creativity on the part of the hiring personnel. the industry has grown so much and there are so many new tools available, people work in so many new and creative ways, that there's no reason to use methods that predate when most candidates these days were born.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#75
I‘ve spent a fair amount of time conducting interview loops at a major tech company. Here are the things I’d be looking for from a candidate like you:

1) Have you delivered something with business or monetary value? Can you explain it?

Hobby programming is great, but I’d hope someone coming from another industry had been able to identify a problem and used their programming skills to solve it.

2) Are you familiar with the larger software engineering toolset and mentality, or just programming.

Planning, estimating, architecture, design, testing, continuous integration, continuous deployment, logging, monitoring, infrastructure, etc… A lot of this falls under DevOps or application lifecycle management these days.

I wouldn’t expect a entry level engineer to have expertise in everything, but I would expect them to be know the basics of most or all of them and why they are valuable. Being able to talk to why CI and automated deployments made your life easier or how a good logging framework and implementation let you figure out an error are good signs you are really into the whole of the profession and not just the fun problem solving parts.

3) Convince me you are interested in the boring parts. In my experience most of being professional software engineer isn’t nearly as fun as hobby projects. Do you really want to do this when you are implementing a mildly customized data grid for the 100th time to enable someone to approve or deny travel requests? Or mapping 150 fields from one data source to another, each of which‘s column names are just different enough to need it’s org definition. Because ultimately, we are solving problems with business value for customers/partners and often the best way to answer those problems is… boring.

4) Most importantly, show me you aren’t a “hobbyist developer trying to become a professional developer”. I want to know you are a professional developer that hasn’t had that title yet. If you can solve problems with software/programming at your current job, do that and tell me about it. Build a product someone, anyone else uses.

If you can, move into a programming adjacent role (product owner/PM/analyst/etc) in your current industry.

Others have knocked bootcamps as a bad option. I’d say it depends. My company runs a training program for military veterans and it is wildly successful, but it also focuses HEAVILY on job placement. I also know a local boot camp in my (small) city that seems to have a darn near 100% placement rate due to an excellent network with local companies. If you find a boot camp with a strong reputation and evidence for high placement rates, it might be worth it. It’s worth noting the the veteran program is free and the local boot camp was cheap as they are programs looking to produce qualified employees for their sponsors rather than money making enterprises themselves.

Network (the interpersonal kind) heavily with other professional developers. Go to meetups. This isn’t so much to find a job directly from one you developing network (although that happens!) but to become familiar with the culture, learn what is being talked about, and learn about opportunities.

Finally, I’ll echo others and say you can go the route of getting a CS degree or similar. If you are going to work in the industry long term I think it’s useful- not only does it fill in a lot of gaps that often only become apparent years later, it also helps with “checkbox” resume screening, gets you access to a career services center and is a nice shortcut to large professional network. Let me put it this way- I’ve never not responded to a student or alumni from my university that has reached out to me. It’s a big commitment though- ideally find a program that caters to working professionals but is affiliated with a large / strong alumni network.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#76

Two ways in I have witnessed: 1) Ship something. "App Stores" make that easy. Interviewer can easily download your app(s) and have plenty of material to ask you about during the interview. 2) Get hired into "QA" — preferably for a position that allows you to write (code) tests. Many of our "testers" where I worked moved into engineering when they were seen as willing and able to make the move.

> Interviewer can easily download your app(s) and have plenty of material to ask you about during the interview. In my experience, this never happened. I strongly suspect that was because they had already decided they weren’t going to hire me (I was 55, when I was interviewing), and didn’t want to waste the time.

refusal to take a good look at GitHub, a shipped product, or portfolio is a red flag that indicates bad org health, and to avoid.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#77
post #6

You need the instant credibility that a CS degree provides. A hobbyist will always have to end up proving themselves in each new job and you have to just get lucky on someone willing to take a chance. Other than that, you could try building out a successful product or freelancing for some time.

This is an antiqued take for nearly all of the IT industry. Most of my peers are industry veterans without a degree. Some only completed high school.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#78
Community will probably hate my comment but that's what I did:

I was in your shoes year ago. - I was finance controller in huge corporation - I started coding in 2015 - Now I work as full stack developer

What I did: 1. The hardest thing: I was working full time in finance and in the meantime I started on upwork (it was hard..) 1.1. I managed to use the upwork conctatcs to be freelancer on my own 1.2. I remove finance work from resume as I had 2 years of experience in different companies (The owners didn't had any issue to me putting this as a experience) 1.3. The resume was literaly written like that: Compan XYZ, Developer; Company XYC, Developer; 2. I start applying for a jobs to test out my skills 2.1. I quickly learn how to solve coding test and what to say during interview (to be honest I learn more in this period than anything before) 2.2. I got some job proposals in start ups but never took it as the rates were very low. I had briliant idea..

3. I use LinkedIn to conctact directly people and get job with rate I was dreaming about 4. I left the corpotation and I provide serivce to 2 different companies and I was never happier. (that was also hard the leaving process and constantly provide service) 5. 11 months later (nowadays) I still provide serive to 2 different companies but plan for 2023 is to be only on 1 contract and focus on family.

It was a long journey but definitely worth it and I had to admit I had a great support from my wife. Imagine doing full time job and learn/ or do work in other times. I want to point out it was challenging but definitely worth it.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#79

Job experience is a cheap proxy for the ability to get things done : if you've had multiple programming jobs, then you've probably been able to get things done and so hiring you is a safe choice. The absence of programming job experience doesn't mean you can't get things done, it just means you need to demonstrate to employers that you can get things done in other ways. You don't need to do a bootcamp (and I'd argue…

> Passing a coding challenge is easy Something must be wrong with me then because I've been programming for decades in multiple areas productively, but successfully completing three leetcode medium/hard within 45 minutes while also talking through my thought process is not something I'd call easy. > so don't focus on them at all I'd suggest most people aren't going to get past the first level if they follow this advi…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#80
What worked for me was developing an interesting project and presenting it at a small programmers' convention. That was enough to get the attention of a company that decided to hire me.

The number one thing you should do is network: get out there and meet people (in person, not just over the Internet.) Here is an ancient secret of success, handed down to me from my father, that I now give to you neontomo:

    STP ·)(·
What does it mean?

"See Twenty People, Belly to Belly"

(Normally you draw the belly buttons closer to the belly curves, like on a napkin or something, the dots are belly buttons, yeah? Anyway...)

See twenty people belly-to-belly every day. Every day. You'll have a job in no time. :)

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