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Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

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Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#61

Post by mattwilsonn888 »

tejohnso wrote: post #35
phphphphp wrote: post #11

Job experience is a cheap proxy for the ability to get things done : if you've had multiple programming jobs, then you've probably been able to get things done and so hiring you is a safe choice. The absence of programming job experience doesn't mean you can't get things done, it just means you need to demonstrate to employers that you can get things done in other ways. You don't need to do a bootcamp (and I'd argue…

> Passing a coding challenge is easy Something must be wrong with me then because I've been programming for decades in multiple areas productively, but successfully completing three leetcode medium/hard within 45 minutes while also talking through my thought process is not something I'd call easy. > so don't focus on them at all I'd suggest most people aren't going to get past the first level if they follow this advi…

Might it be fair to say that Leetcode as a proxy for much real world programming is like using heavy duty mental arithmetic to judge one's quality as a research mathematician?

I think doing some Leetcode type challenges are important at some point - they open a door in your brain around problem solving, but that door tends to stay open thus grinding those challenges to me offers diminishing returns - if people get more out of them and enjoy them that is great, but I think anyone who has had the thrill of solving hard problems to contribute to a high quality project with real application has a unenthusiastic feeling towards Leetcode type challenges and the hollow achievement from finishing them relative to real work.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#62

Post by rwmj »

I would hire a hobby programmer (if they can pass the interview). In fact my policy when interviewing is to never look at CVs at all.

But ... be prepared at least initially to take a junior position. This is because we may need to train you for working in a larger group and you may have a bunch of bad habits. Like not writing understandable code, not writing good (or any) commit messages for other members of the team (or even not using version control at all).

The flip side to this is that junior developers where I work can be promoted very quickly. One recent hire went from a junior software engineer to principal (2 steps and a substantial pay increase) within a year.

Also while you're waiting to interview, please consider contributing to open source projects!

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#63

Post by alexdowad »

masukomi wrote: post #28

> Without any programming jobs on my CV, what is a good way to penetrate into the market? freelance work. Sign up on Upwork.com (or similar). Do a bunch of contracts. Put them on your resume. I did freelance work for years before deciding i was sick of constantly hustling for clients. Then I applied for jobs and said "here's all the things I've done" and they were like "cool. interview. yup. you're hired" Also, pro-t…

This is what I did. Started with one small contract job on Upwork at a modest hourly rate. Then I raised my rate a bit for the 2nd contract, raised it a bit more for the 3rd contract, and so forth. In the process of doing these contract jobs, I got to know people, they introduced me to other people, and soon I had all the work I needed at a rate I was happy with.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#64

Post by fma »

If you got an initial interview and passed the coding challenge then it's the hiring manager (not recruiter) who said no. Lots of comments here about ways to improve your resume...but if you got past the first stage it's not your resume.

Maybe your behavioral interview didn't go well. Maybe you're asking for too much money and a manager can hire someone with years of experience for the same pay as you.

If you got interviews and passed coding challenges, I wouldn't focus on the resume because a resume just gets you in the door. I would not take it at face value that you weren't hired because of lack of experience. Rarely do you get an honest answer and that could just be a cop out for "he's too hard headed" or some other reason that can get a manager in trouble.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#65

Post by issa »

sys_64738 wrote: post #40

Go to college and get a Computing Science degree.

I would hesitate to call this really bad advice, because it would be correct for some people at a certain age or point in their life. But, based on the OP, it doesn't sound like what is called for. It really depends what kind of job you want.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#66

Post by guerrilla »

I think two things. Networking and practicing. In the end, it's highly beneficial to just know the right people and to be good enough by the time opportunity arises. One way to do both is just take crap jobs along the way. Join clubs and do other social hacky stuff though too.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#68

Post by User23 »

Have code samples and be persistent. Being able to demonstrate ability is a superpower. I got my first job based on an object oriented MUD I wrote in C (using the struct casting trick and some tagging). It showed I could write reasonably structured code and that I could follow simple instructions to write a correct multiplexer (from Stevens’s book). It also demonstrated that I understood the basics of event handling[1]. That was my passion at the time. Follow your passion and write something cool. Demonstrate an ability to follow instructions! I’ve interviewed hundreds of supposedly senior engineers and most have trouble coding something as simple as a RPN calculator. Trust me, if you can show that you can listen, think, and write programs you will find a job.

[1] Which is something supposedly senior engineers fail at all the time in interviews. Even though the elevator design problem is literally a cliché now I still see supposedly senior engineers completely blow it because they can’t think about the internal and external elevator controls in terms of events.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#69

Post by andrew_ »

I was in school in 2002 and wrote a freeware app as a hobby. The app got the attention of a company that produced a paid version of the same kind of app, as it was apparently cutting into sales and they liked what I'd done. I was offered a job and left school early to take it. 20 years later my career is still cooking - all because of a hobby/passion project.

I have to think that human nature is still somewhat the same and that kind of opportunity still exists. Probably a low percentage play, but wanted to share none the less.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#70

Post by BirAdam »

wccrawford wrote: post #39
xwdv wrote: post #6

You need the instant credibility that a CS degree provides. A hobbyist will always have to end up proving themselves in each new job and you have to just get lucky on someone willing to take a chance. Other than that, you could try building out a successful product or freelancing for some time.

No, they only need to prove themselves for the first job, unless that job doesn't last long. Work experience trumps a degree every time.

I know a lot of people who make more than me and never went to a college or university. They were just good, got a job, continued being awesome, and got another job. I think a degree can help accelerate promotions, but even that isn’t a guarantee. There is no real alternative to job performance, and getting that first job is the most difficult part.
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