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The internet wants to be fragmented

noahpinion.substack.com

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Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#11

Post by prox »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #4

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

First, I agree with the reprogramming.

But in my experience, the goals shouldn’t be to as you state “to change their minds.” , it should be to listen and respond. If I disagree with you, I want to know how you came to that conclusion , I am not interested in your talking points you had recycled from somewhere.

This also makes discussions way more interesting. Now, this principle should extend to anyone, and the problem is that in online debates discussions often become asymmetrical. Say if your debate partner has no interest in listening, or argues with bad faith. Online communication should promote that mindset (something HN does in a form, but surely not perfected yet)

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#13

Post by jacooper »

The entire problem lies with the twisted motives of social media.

They don't want to make you happy or feel good, they want money, at all costs which results in you being angry and toxic.

I agree with this article in general, and think that its worth it to spend time arguing with people you care about rather some rando on twitter.

community run communities will probably have a resurge, the problem is the tech barrier, we have already seen how mastodon is seen as to complex or has "horrid UX" for normal users.

So I doubt anything will change for the mainstream, techies and other geeky communities might go to mastodon or create a forum, but normal users won't bother doing any of this.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#14

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #7
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #4

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

Everything you say about the like button also applies to votes, so if the like button is what makes social media bad, I don't see why HN should be better.

HN's vote count is not public, and negative count is capped at -4 so you can't downvote someone into oblivion.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#15

Post by CTDOCodebases »

smitty1e wrote: post #6
CTDOCodebases wrote: post #2

Written on substack no less…

"Fragmented" is not "eradicated". The Famous Article: > Why did this happen to the centralized internet when it hadn’t happened to the decentralized internet of previous decades? The reason is that people scale poorly. Dunbar's Number[1] is a thing, and every human effort in physical- or cyber-space, sacred or profane, tends toward a Tower of Babel[2] over time. Those that conform to Gall's Law[3] may prove relativel…

> The reason is that people scale poorly.

I would propose that humans scale magnificently.

Our need for belonging and our propensity for conflict has spread us to all the corners of the earth and it continues to keep us there.

Great from the collective perspective if you want to see humanity as a whole survive.

Not so great for those who suffer from the conflict though.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#16

Post by lapcat »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #4

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

1) "Speaking up" is just one of many forms of speech. Why is speaking up "the purpose of speech", or even the purpose of social media speech?

2) There are many reasons to speak up. One may be to organize like-minded people into an effective advocacy group. Another may just be to lament something that you can't change.

3) I'm not trying to be snarky, but do you have any examples of changing people's minds on HN or social media? I personally don't feel like I ever change anyone's mind.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#17

Post by amadeuspagel »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #14
amadeuspagel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you say about the like button also applies to votes, so if the like button is what makes social media bad, I don't see why HN should be better.

HN's vote count is not public, and negative count is capped at -4 so you can't downvote someone into oblivion.

Most social networks don't have an equivalent to downvotes at all.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#18

Post by jmyeet »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #4

The biggest problem is the like button. The like button is not only a bad metric - it's the worst possible metric. Speaking up used to be something you do to change someone's mind or yours. What's the point in speaking up if nobody does anything with what you said? The like button reprogrammed people. They started getting positive feedback for speaking in an echo chamber, for saying and doing things their audience al…

The like button or upvote or whatever has the same meaning: the viewer is signalling most of the time "I agree with this". Once you factor in other things like quotes and replies you're no longer measuring "engagement". You're measuring and optimizing for "outrage".

Thing is, social media didn't invent this. Outrage-as-engagement existed on TV long before social media existed. For decades, local news has pushed the "crime is out of control" narrative because it gets viewers and readers. Car chases, wall-to-wall coverage of violent and property crime, etc. To do this, local news needs to cooperation of the police so the net effect is local news becomes the propaganda arm of the police.

Cable news has been on this bandwagon since at least the 1990s.

> ... that social media has reprogrammed people to the purpose of speech.

I disagree. We have this high-minded view of what speech used to be only because we weren't there. Go back and look at segregregation-era (let alone slavery-era) newspapers, speeches, etc.

Re: The internet wants to be fragmented

#20

Post by smitty1e »

CTDOCodebases wrote: post #15
smitty1e wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fragmented" is not "eradicated". The Famous Article: > Why did this happen to the centralized internet when it hadn’t happened to the decentralized internet of previous decades? The reason is that people scale poorly. Dunbar's Number[1] is a thing, and every human effort in physical- or cyber-space, sacred or profane, tends toward a Tower of Babel[2] over time. Those that conform to Gall's Law[3] may prove relativel…

> The reason is that people scale poorly. I would propose that humans scale magnificently. Our need for belonging and our propensity for conflict has spread us to all the corners of the earth and it continues to keep us there. Great from the collective perspective if you want to see humanity as a whole survive. Not so great for those who suffer from the conflict though.

>> The reason is that people scale poorly.

> I would propose that humans scale magnificently.

Certainly, apex predator on the food chain. But that is a different point than the human organizational one I was going after.

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