Richard Stallman Was Right All Along • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#211

Post by dodedo » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 3:58 PM UTC

dextorious wrote: post #196

loup-vaillant wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that doesn't seem so dystopian. Everyone is a publisher now. When you think it through, it does seem dystopian. Imagine that e-ink matures, and paper isn't that useful any more. That we no longer purchase dead-tree copies of our books, magazines, and so on. I think that can happen. I read right now a novel on my electronic reader, even though I have a dead-tree copy, because my reader is lighter and slimmer tha…

""""Now, how do I lend you a book for which I have no dead-tree copy? I can't give you such a piece of dead-tree (and naturally lose it for myself). All I can do is make a copy and give it to you. And then I'm a publisher. And then what I'm doing is forbidden. And then I can't even lend you my book.""" So the "dystopia" is the artificial disability to lend books? How about the counter-balance that millions of books a…

"So the 'dystopia' is the artificial disability to lend books?"

It is the inability to communicate freely.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#212

Post by dodedo » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 4:06 PM UTC

pg wrote: post #170

jaekwon wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the "Right to Read" 1997-02... "Dan had learned that each book had a copyright monitor that reported when and where it was read, and by whom, to Central Licensing." -> Streaming content, DMCA tech "It was also possible to bypass the copyright monitors by installing a modified system kernel." -> Jailbreaking "But not only were they illegal, like debuggers—you could not install one if you had one, without knowing…

Predicting DRM phoning home in 1997 does not seem startlingly prescient. Nor locked down systems; those already existed. The only novel idea I see here is the point that copyright, which was originally a restriction on publishers, has now become a restriction on consumers. But that doesn't seem so dystopian. Everyone is a publisher now.

I think the point is not so much that he was prescient, rather that he drew attention to these issues early on, well before they began to threaten the free exchange of information and ideas.

One could say RMS is simply pointing out the obvious, the already demonstrated. Especially technical people like you and I. But remember, RMS has been ridiculed for these positions, by folks much like the author of this article who admits to dismissing RMS as a paranoid fanatic.

The salient message in this story is that the author's opinion has changed. The world has progressed further along this path and it is now quite obvious that the scenario RMS depicts is not only possible, but in some degree has already taken place.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#213

Post by bad_user » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 4:08 PM UTC

billpatrianakos wrote: post #208

bad_user wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't agree with the parent, as the BSD license and BSD-licensed software would have happened anyway, the GPL is the perfect example of what hackers can do against awful legislation. You see, the GPL takes the copyright system and turns it on its head. That's why it is named a copyleft license, an obvious pun. How does it do that? Well, copyright prevents distribution. The GPL rides this restriction and says…

You mentioned BSD and I'm wondering what's wrong with BSD? A lot of FOSS people are all about hating anything that isn't GPL but let's not forget that these licenses serve a purpose. GPL has its place but I personally distribute things I make under BSD all the time. I don't mind and in fact encourage people to take my source, close it up and make a bunch of money off it if they want or take it and give back better co…

I haven't said there's anything wrong with BSD. Where did I say that? As you said, it serves a different purpose.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#214

Post by lunarscape » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 4:34 PM UTC

listic wrote: post #206

lunarscape wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that I have the source for Android, am running a kernel I compiled myself and have explicit control over all the processes running on it. The only flaw in it is that I have to rely on a closed binary blob for the radio as writing my own would be illegal (FCC etc). It can be treated as a closed circuit though. That's the compromise the openmoko projects are using. Also check out Replicant, Stallman's…

Even if writing your own firmware would be illegal (would it be, really?), what prevents manufacturers from releasing the code for examination? Also, radio firmware isn't the only one missing. I think drivers for video and other hardware are not released for no particular reason. All this contributes to the fact that one cannot build firmware for any Android device from source. Accompanied by the fact that Google get…

"Even if writing your own firmware would be illegal (would it be, really?) "

For a radio module I would say so. It's one of the reasons cited by the openmoko successors from not doing it. Radio devices have to be tested and certified that the device stays within FCC or EC standards. Changing the firmware changes behaviour.

"what prevents manufacturers from releasing the code for examination?"

Patents, security... I'm sure they have their reasons.

"Accompanied by the fact that Google gets to do their mining on your data, Android looks just a little more open, compared to iOS."

Not if you use your own ROM or root your phone and stop all Google applicatons.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#215

Post by loup-vaillant » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 4:39 PM UTC

dextorious wrote: post #196

loup-vaillant wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that doesn't seem so dystopian. Everyone is a publisher now. When you think it through, it does seem dystopian. Imagine that e-ink matures, and paper isn't that useful any more. That we no longer purchase dead-tree copies of our books, magazines, and so on. I think that can happen. I read right now a novel on my electronic reader, even though I have a dead-tree copy, because my reader is lighter and slimmer tha…

""""Now, how do I lend you a book for which I have no dead-tree copy? I can't give you such a piece of dead-tree (and naturally lose it for myself). All I can do is make a copy and give it to you. And then I'm a publisher. And then what I'm doing is forbidden. And then I can't even lend you my book.""" So the "dystopia" is the artificial disability to lend books? How about the counter-balance that millions of books a…

> So the "dystopia" is the artificial disability to lend books?

No, that's not bad enough. But it sure leads to a dystopia. Quoting myself: "True dystopia is when the means of enforcing [copyright] kick in: the only know way right now is a "total surveillance" regime, where free software itself is forbidden."

By the way, it still applies even when Big IP do permit you to share with a few friends.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#216

Post by marquis » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 4:49 PM UTC

biot wrote: post #203

marquis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example: the free software movement should lead to a better DNS system where governments and corporations will have no control over how and where we access information online. I continue to support the EFF and groups like it in order to have funds directed into research on critical issues like this. Would you prefer a GPL DNS or proprietary?

> Would you prefer a GPL DNS or proprietary? False dichotomy. Apache, Firefox, Google Chrome, OpenSSH, and many others have all done quite well and are neither GPL nor proprietary.

Yes, you are correct. I used the wrong terminology here to express my argument.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#217

Post by BiosElement » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 5:20 PM UTC

And I predict everyone on this planet will die at some point in time!

... ...

I guess that means I was right all along!

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#218

Post by _delirium » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #199

Zigurd wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS is difficult because he is consistent, because he is right about difficult topics, and because people have a natural tendency to be comforted by authoritarians. But the issues RMS writes and speaks about are fundamental to human rights, and to the continued ability to create and innovate and create value without getting prior permission.

No, there are lots of authors who do that and still have a following. 1. As an advocate, RMS scores own goals far too often. RMS seems to go out of his way to present himself as an eccentric who has no comprehension of social norms. I've also seen an entire roomful of people who were ready to eviscerate a new Microsoft technology (this was back when trusted computing was being introduced) suddenly flip around to symp…

I think those are true, but I think it's basically RMS's personality, so you get the bad with the good. I don't think he's really going out of his way to present himself as such; as far as I can tell he really doesn't have any real comprehension of social norms. I hear similar tales from MIT alumni about even casual encounters with him in hallways or elevators being pretty weird.

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#219

Post by chc » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 6:36 PM UTC

billpatrianakos wrote: post #205

loup-vaillant wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that doesn't seem so dystopian. Everyone is a publisher now. When you think it through, it does seem dystopian. Imagine that e-ink matures, and paper isn't that useful any more. That we no longer purchase dead-tree copies of our books, magazines, and so on. I think that can happen. I read right now a novel on my electronic reader, even though I have a dead-tree copy, because my reader is lighter and slimmer tha…

Didnt the Kindle and Nook come with some way of sharing books with friends? I also seem to remember that the Xune let you share music too. You have to admit that going digital introduces problems that aren't clear cut. If you were to reproduce a physical copy of a book and give it out en masse for either free or a fee you'd be called a bootlegger. But when that same book or movie or whatever is a digital copy then th…

They come with rather neutered implementations of lending that might as well not be there at all since IIRC publishers can and do simply disable the feature in the permissions for their books. Ditto for the feature on the Kindle that reads a book aloud (which was never put into the Nook since the publishers had realized they hated the feature by the time the Nook came out).

Re: Richard Stallman Was Right All Along

#220

Post by chc » Tue, Jan 03, 2012, 6:59 PM UTC

forcefsck wrote: post #201

chc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman might, but the article doesn't mention that. The article basically says, "These two recent laws are scary, so support free software." If it sounded like I was criticizing Stallman, that's unfortunate, because that wasn't my intention. I was criticizing the article, because it invokes Stallman's name but fails to actually deliver any relevant wisdom from Stallman.

A lot of your life is supported by technology, small computers that run some software. If you don't have any control over those devices (e.g. like the iPhone), then a lot of your life is controlled by their creators. Some things you will not notice, like when your phone recommends you a restaurant. Some things might hurt you, like being monitored by a government (w/o the voluntary support from corporations controllin…

The article specifically mentions two laws to support its argument: SOPA and the NDAA. Neither of these has very much to do with the software on your phone or any other consumer device. The primary damage from SOPA is much lower in the food chain — in fact, it's at the level where free software is already dominant — and the NDAA has precious little to do with computers. The link to free software is tenuous at best.