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Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

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Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#41

Post by readonlybarbie »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #37
readonlybarbie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is kind of a shame, to be honest. I would dare say that even x86 assembly is less complicated to understand than many of these libraries, where time is spent trying to memorize their semantics rather than understanding how data is modified and how systems communicate with each other. It is true that a lot of platform specific nastiness and complicated math occurs in some of these libraries which is not necessar…

idk man I already got a couple hobbies and one serious domain of expertise I'm just tryna get work done and get paid here. might be a shame to you but I'm so grateful I don't have to dig through a compiler manual or whatever to do my job.

Agreed, with the only caveat being, there is a chance that the current favorable market conditions for programmers disappears.

There might come a day where companies believe that the value of slapping a few potentially buggy libraries together is not worth $xxx,xxx per year. I for one kind of hope that companies return to buying/contracting well-defined finish products with small external studios rather than throwing money at W2 developers like us. I think the software quality will be higher, and the risk of our jobs being outsourced lower, wherher rightfully so or not.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#42

Post by mejutoco »

AYBABTME wrote: post #13
forrestthewoods wrote: post #11

> A great example is the machine learning: An immediate google gets you as far as 'install these 10x libs' then write this. This is because ML mostly uses Python. And Python is an absolute clusterfuck of dependency hell. https://xkcd.com/1987/

How do you get started with Python dependencies? I've been trying to play with some scientific code and never managed to get it to run and install its dependencies.

If you are not using Windows you can use:

pip: https://pypi.org/project/pip/

pipenv: https://pipenv.pypa.io/en/latest/

poetry: https://python-poetry.org/

Which are basically the same thing.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#43

Post by TylerE »

blahblah1234567 wrote: post #31

OP, An analogy for your question/concern: You want to add 2 numbers. So, I hand you a calculator. That calculator has about 1000 dependencies. I didn't hand you petroleum oil and copper wire, and say "Oh, first, do all these prerequisite processes to manufacture the inputs you'll use to build a calculator. Next, build a calculator. Ok, now you can add two numbers together" (We could even go a step back from that-- I…

Factorio addicts might disagree

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#44

Post by simne »

I think, this is partially, back side of open source, as semi-commercial activity.

What I mean, nothing in this world free, and when You making something, You anyway need some close loop, to make it good, and to retain people (consumers and developers) around Your project.

Next in this logic happen strong tie of tutorial to Your library, so tutorial in reality work as ad for You.

Must admit, it is possible to be above this primitive scheme, but for this must be magnitudes better than competitors in Your niche.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#45

Post by simne »

HybridCurve wrote: post #23
forrestthewoods wrote: post #11

> A great example is the machine learning: An immediate google gets you as far as 'install these 10x libs' then write this. This is because ML mostly uses Python. And Python is an absolute clusterfuck of dependency hell. https://xkcd.com/1987/

I was a HPC system admin for years an I still avoid python because of this and having to manage 2-3 different versions for everyone that never updated their scripts. I hated it and to this day I do my best to write my own support routines in my programs to minimize pulling in anything but the most common libraries or packages.

You are lucky, have no much deal with js world, especially Node, but also affected React, etc.

There real Hell. - I have not seen any real project, without few totally outdated libraries, which changed everything if You once decide update.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#46

Post by simne »

AYBABTME wrote: post #13
forrestthewoods wrote: post #11

> A great example is the machine learning: An immediate google gets you as far as 'install these 10x libs' then write this. This is because ML mostly uses Python. And Python is an absolute clusterfuck of dependency hell. https://xkcd.com/1987/

How do you get started with Python dependencies? I've been trying to play with some scientific code and never managed to get it to run and install its dependencies.

Read about virtualenv, or some of it's analogs.

Yes, answer, You run Your scientific projects in chroot environment, with it's own Python and libraries, and connect to outer world via http-json or in some cases with csv files (pipes).

To run with pipes, could run third party user space program, which will call different Python envs (fortunately it's easy, just find interpreter inside venv directory tree, and use it directly, instead of just python), and will feed them with data.

And yes, sometimes this becomes real pain, because we humans, not machines, and it's easy to make mistake, when working with two so similar envs as typical Python.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#47

Post by simne »

simne wrote: post #46
AYBABTME wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you get started with Python dependencies? I've been trying to play with some scientific code and never managed to get it to run and install its dependencies.

Read about virtualenv, or some of it's analogs. Yes, answer, You run Your scientific projects in chroot environment, with it's own Python and libraries, and connect to outer world via http-json or in some cases with csv files (pipes). To run with pipes, could run third party user space program, which will call different Python envs (fortunately it's easy, just find interpreter inside venv directory tree, and use it d…

Also could share data with db, but I think it is not always good, to add (usually) heavy weight db libraries into venv, but pipes are lightweight, and csv/json/yml also not heavy.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#48

Post by IIsi50MHz »

gcanyon wrote: post #24

This is one of the reasons I still use LiveCode despite middling performance, near-zero library support, and a language spec that was reasonable in 2000: it has zero dependencies. You can: Go to the web site Download a single installer Run that to produce a single file executable Run the app Create a new project (you get a window for free) Drag a text box from the tool palette onto the window Switch to the arrow tool…

What stops me from trying LiveCode is that I don't see a way to buy a non-subscription version (would also have to not be significantly hobbled).

All the pricing plans are either grossly expensive (meaning I'd have to already be skilled with LiveCode and have at least one product profitable enough to offset the subscription), or too expensive for what I'd get (too limited features, and everything disables if you stop subscribing…including any ceated apps).

Things that make me almost want to try it: It looks like Hypercard (script-wise) and a bit like FutureBASIC II (including the Program Generator), can edit a running program and deploy to various platforms.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#49

Post by gcanyon »

IIsi50MHz wrote: post #48
gcanyon wrote: post #24

This is one of the reasons I still use LiveCode despite middling performance, near-zero library support, and a language spec that was reasonable in 2000: it has zero dependencies. You can: Go to the web site Download a single installer Run that to produce a single file executable Run the app Create a new project (you get a window for free) Drag a text box from the tool palette onto the window Switch to the arrow tool…

What stops me from trying LiveCode is that I don't see a way to buy a non-subscription version (would also have to not be significantly hobbled). All the pricing plans are either grossly expensive (meaning I'd have to already be skilled with LiveCode and have at least one product profitable enough to offset the subscription), or too expensive for what I'd get (too limited features, and everything disables if you stop…

You probably already know this, but: the most affordable option is $10/month for a single platform. It seems perfectly reasonable for trying out the platform. If the license fees for serious development are a non-starter, then it's probably not worth trying out. But:

There was an open source version at one point that wasn't economically viable so they discontinued it. In the announcement here: https://livecode.org they say to email their support team if $10/month is too much for you.

Re: Ask HN: Tutorials written with heavy dependencies

#50

Post by IIsi50MHz »

gcanyon wrote: post #49
IIsi50MHz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What stops me from trying LiveCode is that I don't see a way to buy a non-subscription version (would also have to not be significantly hobbled). All the pricing plans are either grossly expensive (meaning I'd have to already be skilled with LiveCode and have at least one product profitable enough to offset the subscription), or too expensive for what I'd get (too limited features, and everything disables if you stop…

You probably already know this, but: the most affordable option is $10/month for a single platform. It seems perfectly reasonable for trying out the platform. If the license fees for serious development are a non-starter, then it's probably not worth trying out. But: There was an open source version at one point that wasn't economically viable so they discontinued it. In the announcement here: https://livecode.org th…

Thank you, for the pointer and the followup.
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