Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#211

Post by kukkeliskuu » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 3:54 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #208

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make sure, I am not the same person you originally commented. I just wanted to add my 2 cents and tell that Tarot can be something else than what people typically think it is. It is not scientific and I am not claiming it is. But I think science in these fields is not scientific either —- that is what the replication crisis implies. However I find interesting that your preconception of Tarot seems so strong t…

Yes, I can certainly agree that Tarot cards in the sense you mean -- the same sense as jogging, taking a shower or doodling on a piece of paper -- can help one's mind become unstuck on a problem. But how many Tarot readers are going to agree with your interpretation? You know they trade on the occult.

In my experience it can potentially help you unstuck a little bit better than jogging for two reasons. As you are approaching the question you are interested in systematically from multiple directions, it gives you more perspectives. Also, the symbolism in the cards appear to be efficient in encouraging new ways of thinking. That was Jung’s idea as well: the symbolism is closely related to certain deep patterns of our thinking, and that in itself is helpful.

You are asking how many people use the Tarot cards in this manner. Firstly, the number is non-zero because I am doing it, and I know others who do it. Secondly, as I do not believe the cards are magical, I believe everybody who is getting some meaningful results are using the Tarot cards in this way, even if they are not conscious about it.

I think the question you really want to ask is that how many people believe the carda have some supernatural powers. I don’t really know, but I would suspect that most people using them. This is partly because the reputation they have, and strong opposition to the cards just increases this reputation.

You ask whether people understand that they are ”trading with the occult”. I do not understand what you are asking. It appears that you so mot believe in the supernatural. If you did, I would get the impression that you think anything occult is really bad (i.e. from the devil) and god-fearing people should avoid it. But if one does not believe in the supernatural, then ”occult” is just a word.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#212

Post by kukkeliskuu » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 4:45 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #200

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for the peer review —- after the replication crisis of psychology, I don’t put too much value in scientific process in that or related fields. When we live in scientific ”wild west”, one has to try to find the truth oneself, being both open-minded and critical. That is why I tried Tarot when a friend suggested it, and then learned what I wrote above. And I was very critical of the whole idea of Tarot, because I be…

> after the replication crisis of psychology, I don’t put too much value in scientific process in that or related fields I thought I had preempted this in my comment: whatever criticism of psychology and therapy there is, it applies tenfold to fringe stuff like Tarot. There may be a crisis of replication in psychology, but there is simply no replication or oversight or peer review at all with Tarot and occultism in g…

I think your comment about ”trading with the occult” below is related to the point you make here: people appear to have different level of skepticism toward ”science” and ”occult”.

I don’t want to go too much on a tangent here, but in my experience, it is about trust.

People have lost their trust that in multiple fields the scientific process works as it should, and by association, they have lost their general trust in ”The Science” as well.

This is because scientific community as a whole has failed to come up with measures proportional to the problems. I think this lack of trust makes sense, although it probably is based on emotional reaction for most people, rather than rational thinking.

Trust is in short supply nowadays, so people grasp even the little trust they see. And that is more likely to be their neighbor.

This may make you angry, but the science needs to earn the trust again if we want have the level of trust to be like it used to be.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#213

Post by hnfong » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 7:13 AM UTC

tarotuser wrote: post #183

fractallyte wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very enlightening comment, thank you! Some commentators might take issue with the very last word: 'science'... Regarding symbology, for both intuitive and mechanistic readings, isn't there a lot that can be interpreted - in many different ways - from even a single symbol, let alone a string of symbols? Edit: adding this part for anyone who wants to dismiss this as pseudoscience. Jung devoted much of his lif…

Ah indeed. It was my intent to compare tarot and esoterism to that of evidentiary science in a criminal setting. DNA evidence is a reproducible fact of being present at a scene. And other crime scene investigators can prove it in a scientific setting. But alas, I was tired last night and didn't come across the way ai had intended. > Regarding symbology, for both intuitive and mechanistic readings, isn't there a lot t…

3rd party readings and public readings aren't just terrible form, but if one believes in the non-materialistic aspects, it's widely said to be terrible for one's karma.

And if one doesn't believe in this, why even participate?

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#214

Post by hnfong » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 7:28 AM UTC

system2 wrote: post #79

tarotuser wrote: post #44

Greetings. I'm rather new here and a friend steered me towards here. I'm a pagan, and unfortunately this has caused a rather ugly stir in our communities. In recent (last 1.5 years), TikTok has been the primary contributing 'terrible occultists, witches, and pagans'. Their practices equate to what we would describe as cargo cultism, commercialism, and general lack of any understanding what we do. Most of us look down…

I don't mean to disrespect but there is absolutely no difference between rolling dice then adding meanings to the results and tarot deck shuffling and picking randomly. It sure looks fun though.

It's more like assigning meanings to 1-6 before rolling the dice. One popular theory is that once the meaning is established, the subconscious mind somehow makes the connection and steers the result.

Of course the intuitive reading version is slightly more like what you described. But still, there's a difference.

Disclaimer: I've only done tarot once in my entire life. My main interest in this regard are theorizing, *if* occult practices have any truth in them, how would they possibly work.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#215

Post by ArmandTanzarian » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 9:22 AM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #143

ummonk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it's treated as fact, it has to be false. Has she lied about what cards she saw in the tarot reading?

But that's tptacek's original point: what if she saw a "3 of Cups", and said "3 of Cups means that Professor X did Y (in the Conservatory)". Is that an opinion (her interpretation of what the card means) or a lie (because it's highly unlikely there's any system in which that card could possibly lead to that interpretation)?

That isnt how the cards work, nor could anyone with the most rudimentary understanding of the cards interpret such a thing from any set of cards. I don't know if "liar" is the word i'd use, but anyone making such concrete statements based on a reading is not doing any research whatsoever on card meanings. I am in the camp that the cards are an excellent tool at helping the user examine their situation/self/ethics in an abstract way that ultimately help us better understand our feelings and address issues that we may be ignoring. It does seem rather uncanny reflecting on previous readings and how they consistently seem to accurately reflect situations and courses of action, but surely this is what i projected onto the cards?

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#216

Post by mihaic » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 9:37 AM UTC

When I was a child I used to wonder why it wasn't illegal to have people present the horoscope on TV. Trustworthy adults had confirmed it was lying and had also told me that lying in the news was forbidden, so how could there be TV shows where people knowingly spread misinformation.

Years later, I'm actually more surprised that society in general permits lies to be told on TV, mostly because nobody likes or is incentivized to walk in the gray area between free speech and yelling fire.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#217

Post by the_af » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #212

the_af wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after the replication crisis of psychology, I don’t put too much value in scientific process in that or related fields I thought I had preempted this in my comment: whatever criticism of psychology and therapy there is, it applies tenfold to fringe stuff like Tarot. There may be a crisis of replication in psychology, but there is simply no replication or oversight or peer review at all with Tarot and occultism in g…

I think your comment about ”trading with the occult” below is related to the point you make here: people appear to have different level of skepticism toward ”science” and ”occult”. I don’t want to go too much on a tangent here, but in my experience, it is about trust. People have lost their trust that in multiple fields the scientific process works as it should, and by association, they have lost their general trust…

(Again, thanks for the honest and measured reply)

My problem with what you are arguing has multiple sides.

First, science brought us here. The people mistrusting it are using computers, tech, medicine and are possibly alive (or their ancestors were, anyway) thanks to scientific or protoscientific advances. So their skepticism is demonstrably misplaced. And what exactly are they skeptical about, anyway? "Big Pharma"? Well, that's conflating science with business -- and while there might not be such a thing as "Big Tarot" (plenty of scammers though, in the sense of preying on the weak), there's even less oversight for Tarot, so every problem you can spot with scientific endeavors is manifested tenfold with fringe practices!

There. Are. No. Standards. And. No. Oversight. For. Fringe. Practices.

That's what kills me.

What about "regaining" trust? I don't think that's at all possible given the unequal battle between science and baloney. It takes basically nothing to make magical claims. There are no experiments, no standards, no testable assertions, it only takes some charlatan claiming the Third Moon of Jupiter or the Death card means that some stranger in your future yadda yadda. But science is built on an edifice of failures and tribulations, I can even talk about the "replication crisis" of science and that alone will tell you there's oversight!

I guess that's it: science can speak about its failures; charlatans will eventually be shunned by their peers. With Tarot, palm reading, etc, they never speak about failures, there's no oversight and nobody gets shunned because they are all charlatans.

How can science "fight" against that to "win" public trust, when science by its own method MUST (eventually) admit its mistakes, whereas Tarot will not, ever?

No charlatan successfully won the Amazing Randi's (R.I.P.) bet. No Tarot reader either. The other person in this conversation making claims you can influence which cards get drawn by asking a question -- that would have won a tidy sum if demonstrated to Randi, how come it never happened? Shouldn't that demolish any of their fringe claims, or do people "mistrust" Randi as well?

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#218

Post by the_af » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #211

the_af wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I can certainly agree that Tarot cards in the sense you mean -- the same sense as jogging, taking a shower or doodling on a piece of paper -- can help one's mind become unstuck on a problem. But how many Tarot readers are going to agree with your interpretation? You know they trade on the occult.

In my experience it can potentially help you unstuck a little bit better than jogging for two reasons. As you are approaching the question you are interested in systematically from multiple directions, it gives you more perspectives. Also, the symbolism in the cards appear to be efficient in encouraging new ways of thinking. That was Jung’s idea as well: the symbolism is closely related to certain deep patterns of ou…

Yes, I understand you don't believe the cards are magical. Everything you've said so far points to you taking them as some sort of psychotherapy, a way of introspecting with the help of some external tools. I think it's exactly like doodling on a piece of paper, but I'm ok if you disagree.

I think most people and almost every Tarot reader -- regardless of what they privately believe -- is going to "sell" you Tarot in one of two ways:

1. "oh, it's just a game! Don't take it seriously! Though the cards sometimes speak the truth... for example, my cousin one day was told that [anecdote]" 2. "The cards are magical, there's a system to them, they channel the energies of [explanation]" No-one really claims "this is just therapy to get you unstuck, you could just as well doodle with a pencil, but let's use these expensive cards/sessions instead". Well, you are sort of claiming it here, but most people don't. I've never met a Tarot... uh, "fan", who claimed this, for example.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#219

Post by the_af » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #211

the_af wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I can certainly agree that Tarot cards in the sense you mean -- the same sense as jogging, taking a shower or doodling on a piece of paper -- can help one's mind become unstuck on a problem. But how many Tarot readers are going to agree with your interpretation? You know they trade on the occult.

In my experience it can potentially help you unstuck a little bit better than jogging for two reasons. As you are approaching the question you are interested in systematically from multiple directions, it gives you more perspectives. Also, the symbolism in the cards appear to be efficient in encouraging new ways of thinking. That was Jung’s idea as well: the symbolism is closely related to certain deep patterns of ou…

> But if one does not believe in the supernatural, then ”occult” is just a word

Sorry, I didn't address this. Of course I don't believe in the supernatural or the devil, so my reaction against this is not from a "God fearing" perspective.

I mean "the occult" as in "fringe practices that claim to use the supernatural, spirit world, etc." and I object to it because it's fraudulent and harmful magical thinking. I'm not worried about the "spirit world" itself, because it doesn't exist; I'm just worried about the bullshit.

"Occult" is indeed just a word that means "hidden", but its actual usage has implications.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#220

Post by the_af » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 8:33 PM UTC

fargle wrote: post #210

driverdan wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost 2023 and people still believe this nonsense. Humanity is doomed.

and, worse, it seems that some of them work with computers. it's shattering to see this being taken seriously by people who should be trained to work with extremely deterministic systems, demanding the utmost rationality.

Some years ago, someone here on HN was arguing in favor of "magic in the server room" -- as in "blood magic", not hackerdom. They claimed they felt persecuted by skepticism and if they were engaging in some kind of joke, they took it far enough to never accept it was a gag (and HN wouldn't be the place for it anyway).

If I remember correctly, it was someone reacting to one of Aphyr's "magic" articles (which are metaphor), taking them at face value and claiming they also did spells while working with computers.

Again, this was not a metaphor for hacking, but a claim of actual, Harry Potter style magic.