SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#211

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:28 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #196

dragonwriter wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're letting the market figure out the right price for delivery service at any given moment No, you aren’t, because there is no clear signal to the buyer about acceptable price (except, the outright fraudulent , if one accepts that the tip is actually part of the delivery charge, membership + delivery free charged by the intermediary). > It strengthens the case for DSPs treating their delivery workers as contract…

>No, you aren’t, because there is no clear signal to the buyer about acceptable price (except, the outright fraudulent, if one accepts that the tip is actually part of the delivery charge, membership + delivery free charged by the intermediary). See my edits. >Unless you are a shareholder of the DSP, this isn’t a benefit. The existence of gig jobs is a benefit for people who can't work regular hours, and therefore ca…

> The existence of gig jobs is a benefit for people who can't work regular hours, and therefore can't get jobs as "employees"

Employees with irregular hours are a thing, and were even moreso before the trend of forcing them into more precarious designated-as-contractor-roles (often contrary to labor law) became popular with the “gig economy”.

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#212

Post by phpisthebest » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:30 AM UTC

insane_dreamer wrote: post #135

phpisthebest wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips. There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more), consumers hate it because the menu prices increase, and you end up with McD's level customer service where drinks are…

Strong disagree. You can still tip at restaurants where the service is already added to the bill automatically (so you go in knowing the meal will cost 20% more than what the listed prices are, just like you know that when something says $199 it's actually $210 once you add sales tax). You can always also tip in appreciation for the service (so high performers can get more) but you're not feeling like you're forced t…

>>you can still tip at restaurants where the service is already added to the bill automatically (so you go in knowing the meal will cost 20% more than what the listed prices are

They better just raise the menu price, any place that has a 20% service charge added automatically (outside the standard large party ) will never get my patronage again

>> once you add sales tax

that is nothing like Sales Tax. Sales tax is a fee the government is charging ME that the business is mandated by the government to collect on my behalf, I owe the tax not the business. People often do not understand that context. Just like when your employer taxes out of your paycheck, you owe the income tax but the employer is mandated to collect it because the government do not trust you with your own money.

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#213

Post by fargle » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:31 AM UTC

richbell wrote: post #181

fargle wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no. people steal stuff so freely because they don't get prosecuted or punished. and they do it in the first place because they can sell the stuff and buy meth. they 100% aren't worried about gentrification issues or the local economy, etc.

> people steal stuff so freely because they don't get prosecuted or punished. > and they do it in the first place because they can sell the stuff and buy meth. they 100% aren't worried about gentrification issues or the local economy, etc. People also steal stuff increasingly because they need it and cannot afford it. In the past few years thefts of things like groceries and diapers have shot up. It's depressing, rea…

only because people who are stealing groceries and diapers have spent, squandered, wasted, or sold, the goodwill and benefits designed to cure their hunger or cloth their children.

you will not starve (or kids have no diapers) in this country simply because you refuse to steal. it's a really bad choice, and yes I do understand that people make bad choices. it's redeemable and understandable, but it's not excusable.

and yes! it's completely depressing!

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#214

Post by fipar » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #49

rqtwteye wrote: post #13

It’s the same with the tipping that seems almost everywhere these days. Instead of the workers being paid properly by the company the customer gets guilt tripped to tip and when you don’t tip the worker is angry at the customer, not the company.

The problem here is that workers now want to be "paid properly" (what ever that means) and still get tips. There have been restaurants have tried non-tipping models, consumers and staff both hate it. First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more), consumers hate it because the menu prices increase, and you end up with McD's level customer service where drinks are…

> First the highly productive staff often make less under that model (where poor performers make more)

I just wanted to share the fact that there are places where tips are shared by the whole staff, and that system works well (I can't say if it works worse or better than the one you're describing as I don't have much experience with it). It also has the advantage that non-public-facing staff (e.g., cooks) get their share of tips too.

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#215

Post by askvictor » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

alwayslikethis wrote: post #183

mattwilsoninc2 wrote: post #171

Another similar notion is with credit card payments for convenience items at bakeries, deli, and pizza restaurants. A company called "4shifts" is notorious for telling owners to place a sign on the register "a convenience charge of 3.5% will be added to the sale if you use a credit card". Add the 3.5% plus sales tax which increases the sale by 8% - 12% depending on the state you live in. 4shifts is also used in major…

Why should they bear the cost of credit card payment processing? Cash buyers shouldn't have to subsidize credit card users.

Cash isn't free either (you need a float, security/insurance for the risk of theft, employee mistakes/theft, accounting costs to reconcile the days earnings). It's just that these costs are often internalised by the company (I have no idea what the actual cost is compared to a credit card surcharge, but it's non-zero).

Then (depending on your political views) there's the broader cost to society of tax-evasion that sometimes comes with cash payments (I'm not saying that cash is bad, but it's pretty clear that some businesses that are cash-only are avoiding tax and paying workers under-the-table, which has impacts both for government and the workers involved)

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#216

Post by thret » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

rqtwteye wrote: post #13

It’s the same with the tipping that seems almost everywhere these days. Instead of the workers being paid properly by the company the customer gets guilt tripped to tip and when you don’t tip the worker is angry at the customer, not the company.

The worker is also forced to beg for the money that they have earned. It's demeaning. Nothing about this interaction is positive.

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#217

Post by shagie » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

richbell wrote: post #181

fargle wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no. people steal stuff so freely because they don't get prosecuted or punished. and they do it in the first place because they can sell the stuff and buy meth. they 100% aren't worried about gentrification issues or the local economy, etc.

> people steal stuff so freely because they don't get prosecuted or punished. > and they do it in the first place because they can sell the stuff and buy meth. they 100% aren't worried about gentrification issues or the local economy, etc. People also steal stuff increasingly because they need it and cannot afford it. In the past few years thefts of things like groceries and diapers have shot up. It's depressing, rea…

Theft of diapers (and laundry detergent) is because these are items that are consumed, fairly high value, needed somewhere in the area, and able to be sold for cash.

People don't often steal diapers because they need them.

https://consumerist.com/2012/10/26/diapers-are-apparently-th...

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/retail-crime-ring-s...

https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/two-arrested-i...

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#218

Post by EMM_386 » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

Invictus0 wrote: post #158

1) What good would it do to subject the execs and shareholders to vitriol? 2) Is this even a new thing? Did John D. Rockefeller ever have to endure an angry tirade from someone pissed about the gas prices? 3) Have you seen Southwest's stock price? The workers are getting their pay no matter what. The shareholders have just lost $3 billion in value. 4) Are we just going to pretend that the airlines didn't nearly just…

Southwest Airlines received over $7B in federal pandemic aid and used it as soon as they legally could to start paying dividends and doing stock buybacks. Not investing in IT or the fragile infrastructure that was recently on display.

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#219

Post by tomalpha » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #165

standardUser wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of a living wage is not new and it is calculated and used by many governments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

the problem here is none of that is actually connected to what a person needs. "Living Wage" Laws are just a different way to implement minimum wages, none of the laws shown on that page are connected to any kind of structure or process by which things needed to "live" like food, housing etc are tabulated where by a wage is set. it is just a arbitrary wage picked by legislatures exactly like a "minimum wage" law only…

> both of which are just numbers pulled out of thin air

The living wage is not in the UK. Dispute the method all you want of course, but there is a method:

https://www.livingwage.org.uk/calculation

Re: SouthwestAirlines' Meltdown Shows How Corporations Pit Consumers Against Workers

#220

Post by gruez » Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 2:38 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #211

gruez wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, you aren’t, because there is no clear signal to the buyer about acceptable price (except, the outright fraudulent, if one accepts that the tip is actually part of the delivery charge, membership + delivery free charged by the intermediary). See my edits. >Unless you are a shareholder of the DSP, this isn’t a benefit. The existence of gig jobs is a benefit for people who can't work regular hours, and therefore ca…

> The existence of gig jobs is a benefit for people who can't work regular hours, and therefore can't get jobs as "employees" Employees with irregular hours are a thing, and were even moreso before the trend of forcing them into more precarious designated-as-contractor-roles (often contrary to labor law) became popular with the “gig economy”.

>Employees with irregular hours are a thing, and were even moreso before the trend of forcing them into more precarious designated-as-contractor-roles (often contrary to labor law) became popular with the “gig economy”.

Note that I never made any claims about whether it's actually better for every employee, or even the average employee. I was only responding to your claim that "Unless you are a shareholder of the DSP, this isn’t a benefit". Moreover, I'm skeptical your claim that people are being "forced" from being employees to being contractors. At least when it comes to restaurants, the DSPs were basically servicing restaurants that didn't do deliveries before. Therefore it's highly unlikely that anyone who was previously a delivery employee was forced to switch to being contractors, because those jobs didn't even exist before.