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Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

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Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#101

Post by zem »

Kototama wrote: post #100
syspec wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly without proper editor support from a company like intelli-j, I just can't see myself picking it up. Hard to give up on the niceties it provides, especially when working on a non-static language I did try the third-party intelli-j plug-in but never got it to work If it had that... look out!

You are missing a lot of the best tech out there in the programming world if you are waiting for an IntelliJ-like IDE for each programming language.

this is a good read on the topic: https://blog.osteele.com/2004/11/ides

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#102

Post by ctvo »

eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

> Elixir is a very nice language to write distributed systems in. Functional in all the right places plus it has OTP.

This is the biggest blocker for introducing Elixir to any company I work at. I don't want to become / hire experts in the OTP and the Erlang VM.

I'm ignorant about it in general, but my feeling is it's not only a new language, it's built on abstractions that I'm not sure I'm comfortable owning or operating. Is that wrong and how did you handle the tradeoffs for your company?

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#103

Post by mlambie »

sph wrote: post #65
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

> The community is full of very senior people who freely answer your noob questions. The role of José Valim, the creator of Elixir, can't be understated. He's everywhere, he's got his hands in many of the top used libraries, and he's incredibly welcoming and responsive to all the inane GitHub issues I've opened over the years. People wrongly compare Elixir to Ruby, but I wonder if he decided to recreate the welcoming…

To highlight this point, Jose’s in this thread and across HR. He’s an inspirational leader.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#104

Post by bongobingo1 »

ctvo wrote: post #102
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

> Elixir is a very nice language to write distributed systems in. Functional in all the right places plus it has OTP. This is the biggest blocker for introducing Elixir to any company I work at. I don't want to become / hire experts in the OTP and the Erlang VM. I'm ignorant about it in general, but my feeling is it's not only a new language, it's built on abstractions that I'm not sure I'm comfortable owning or oper…

You can kinda ignore OTP outside of the initial "run these (erlang) processes when the vm boots", which is a few lines - often scaffolded out automatically.

But then when you suddenly need some async task x service x parallelism its there.

I guess if you're building a company it does behoove you to at least read a bit about it but you don't need every team member to be an OTP expert. If you can understand how an OS runs processes at the most basic level and how javascripts async/await works you're already most of the way in a practical day-to-day sense.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#105

Post by h0l0cube »

tiffanyh wrote: post #52
h0l0cube wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could even switch over to Bandit which was on a recent Thinking Elixir podcast > In recent performance tests, Bandit's HTTP/1.x engine is up to 5x faster than Cowboy depending on the number of concurrent requests. When comparing HTTP/2 performance, Bandit is up to 2.3x faster than Cowboy https://github.com/mtrudel/bandit

That’s a great point and Phoenix 1.7 is the first release to support the usage of other web servers. 2-5x speed up would make Erlang surprise Java/Go/etc. https://stressgrid.com/blog/webserver_benchmark/

Bandit is written in pure Elixir which is a bit undesirable to integrate with pure Erlang projects. From what I gleaned off the podcast, it's a subset of the HTTP features available in Cowboy, specifically those that are available on the Phoenix side, and cleaving off the unused functionality realized much of the performance benefit.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#106

Post by throwawaymaths »

ctvo wrote: post #102
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

> Elixir is a very nice language to write distributed systems in. Functional in all the right places plus it has OTP. This is the biggest blocker for introducing Elixir to any company I work at. I don't want to become / hire experts in the OTP and the Erlang VM. I'm ignorant about it in general, but my feeling is it's not only a new language, it's built on abstractions that I'm not sure I'm comfortable owning or oper…

The abstractions you need to critically know are map and reduce. It's not functional like Haskell, the limit at which you need to "think about it being functional" is that a value inside a variable can't change from underneath you when you pass it to a function. It pretty quickly changes from "I have think about values not chamging" to "I don't have to worry about values changing"

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#107

Post by eclark »

brigandish wrote: post #69
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

What are you using for the component library? I was thinking of trying out Elixir and if there’s something that works well with it I’d rather start there than by trial and error.

I would recommend Petal: https://petal.build/ It's what I used for quite a while and I think it's the most comprehensive currently.

We're building two different UI's that share a common design language so we ended up creating a common UI application in the umbrella project.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#108

Post by el_nahual »

dmix wrote: post #76
josevalim wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each LiveView requires a persistent WebSocket connection to the server. This means it does have a different scaling profile than the usual request/response lifecycle, but the Erlang VM is greatly capable of holding millions of connections at the same time and therefore is a perfect fit for the LiveView model. In fact, LiveView is built on top of the same Phoenix Channels we used to achieve 1 million connections on a…

What situations would face possible issues with the persistent-socket-per-view approach? A sprawling app with hundreds of distinct views that over-use LiveView? Would there also be multiple persistent sockets for each particular page? I can't imagine the type of site that would need that sort of structure. Typically you'd have your highly-interactive primary subset of your app, about <10-25% of the routes/views which…

We use LiveView extensively and one meaningful issue we have is users with intermittent connections on mobile.

On a "normal" req/resp page, their intermittent connection would manifest as a blank then slowly loading page: things that the user understands as being the result (in a way) of "bad internet".

With LiveView, the site simply becomes unresponsive. Nothing changes, and the user interprets this as the site being "broken" (which in a way it is)

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#109

Post by eclark »

Mizza wrote: post #42
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

I'm also doing a solo-startup right now that relies heavily on LiveView and Channels/Websockets. I wouldn't have been able to build it by myself without Elixir/Pheonix. It's absolutely fantastic, can't recommend it highly enough.

100% this. I started with it solo and I was able to achieve what would have been very hard for a three person team with the standard js app + api app + backend app.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#110

Post by h0l0cube »

syspec wrote: post #95
tiffanyh wrote: post #6

Elixir/Phoenix has hit full-stride. I feel like the next big unlock in user adoption is continued improvements to BeamAsm. Hopefully something on the order of 100-200% raw performance speed up. Note: I’m talking about raw perf, not concurrency. A few other additions to Phoenix 1.7 include: - verified routes - tailwind built in - additional web server support (bandit) https://www.phoenixframework.org/blog/phoenix-1.7-…

Honestly without proper editor support from a company like intelli-j, I just can't see myself picking it up. Hard to give up on the niceties it provides, especially when working on a non-static language I did try the third-party intelli-j plug-in but never got it to work If it had that... look out!

Elixir-ls provides Language Server Protocol support as well as VS Code Debug Protocol support which gives extra powers to VS Code, NeoVim, Emacs, and the like.

https://github.com/elixir-lsp/elixir-ls

I do agree that automated refactoring would be an amazing productivity improvement.

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