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Is Hate Speech Legal?

thefire.org

131–140 of 154 posts

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#131
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is best to look at this from a procedural standpoint. If you make a specific claim against an individual, that individual has the ability to prove that they are harmed/affected by what you have done. Which means they have standing and the case is much less likely to be immediately dismissed. Additionally, that individual is able to defend themselves against the claims that you have made and would actually be able…

What if there is a clear case of being harmed? For example, what if a mass shooter cites someone who spouts hate speech as a motivation for their actions?

How is that different from Charles Manson claiming that The Beatles were sending him coded messages telling him to start a race war, or David Berkowitz claiming that his neighbor's dog was telling him to kill people?

Do we get to blame Karl Marx for the tens of millions who have been murdered by his followers?

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#132
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "asymmetrically" mean other than freedom of speech not implying freedom from consequences?

He likely means you can be openly anti white without consequences but not anti black. Openly anti Christian but not anti Jewish.

[deleted]

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#133
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "asymmetrically" mean other than freedom of speech not implying freedom from consequences?

He likely means you can be openly anti white without consequences but not anti black. Openly anti Christian but not anti Jewish.

There are plenty of spaces where you can be openly anti-black and anti-semitic without consequence. That you can't do so in, say, a black church or a synagogue doesn't mean white Christians don't have the same rights as black people and Jews. Try to be anti-white or anti-Christian on any "free speech" platform or many places in the American deep south and you'll definitely face consequences.

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post is on an American website running as a service of an American startup accelerator running out of America's tech hub, running on an American operating system based on a research project at an American university, and links to a post from an American organization concerned with American free speech law and policy. I feel like the applicable context is easily inferred. https://www.thefire.org/about-us/mission

Perhaps this is nitpicking around your main point, but ... " running on an American operating system " What operating system? I'd imagine this site is running on Linux, like almost everything else on the Internet, and I struggle to understand how you could define Linux as an American operating system .

It appears to be built on FreeBSD, though I suppose Netcraft could be basing that on a load balancer or something.

> The FreeBSD Foundation is a 501(c)(3), US based, non-profit organization

https://freebsdfoundation.org/about-us/about-the-foundation/

> It is derived from BSD, the version of UNIX® developed at the University of California, Berkeley.

https://www.freebsd.org/about/

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#135
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there is a clear case of being harmed? For example, what if a mass shooter cites someone who spouts hate speech as a motivation for their actions?

How is that different from Charles Manson claiming that The Beatles were sending him coded messages telling him to start a race war, or David Berkowitz claiming that his neighbor's dog was telling him to kill people? Do we get to blame Karl Marx for the tens of millions who have been murdered by his followers?

It is ironic that you use Manson as an example. He was convicted of murder despite not directly committing the murders or ordering the murders to be done. He is in jail for the how his speech inspired others to act.

These are trials we are talking about. We don’t have to believe everything that is said. We can let a jury look at the situation and make a decision. A reasonable person wouldn’t consider any Beatles lyrics to be instructions to murder. A reasonable person could interpret some hate speech as instructions for murder.

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#136
post #85
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US First Amendment does not say anything about libel or calls to violence. I am not aware of other amendments doing so either. What is the rationale for allowing these limitations on speech that cannot equally be applied to hate speech?

The right to free speech does not protect your right to commit crimes or civilly damage someone merely by speaking as part of the crime or tort. So if you and your friends plan to rob a bank together, the planning, or conspiracy, can be a separate charge in addition to the robbery. Libel is a tort because you lie (important) to damage someone's reputation and this could cost them money. Hate speech is mostly just hur…

> The right to free speech does not protect your right to commit crimes or [...]

If hate speech were to be made a crime, your exact same argument "the right to free speech does not protect your right to commit crimes" could and would be used as an argument why the First Amendment supposedly does not apply.

> It neither helps cause physical damage nor costs the victims money. You cannot, in the US, ban the expression of a thought just because you think somewhere down the line it could result in damage to someone.

That is exactly what your example of planning to rob a bank is. The planning to rob a bank does not cause any damage. The planning to rob a bank does not cause any victims any money. Actually executing that plan does that, but the planning does not guarantee that the execution will happen. Yet if I were to say "You cannot, in the US, ban it just because you think somewhere down the line it could result in damage to someone" you would rightly dismiss it as nonsense.

> Hate speech is mostly just hurting peoples feelings.

We may disagree on the "mostly", but even you are acknowledging that it is not limited to that, so let's focus on cases that can't be considered that.

> Libel is a tort because you lie (important) to damage someone's reputation and this could cost them money.

Okay, now consider for instance well-known conspiracy theories that the world is controlled by (insert group here). They are lies, they damage the reputation of many if not most members of the group, and this could cost members of the group money. They are not libellous if not said about specific people, they are generally considered hate speech if based on any of a specific set of protected characteristics, but despite the exact same reasoning applying to both, libel would not be considered protected speech, and, as far as I understand, this particular form of hate speech would be.

It is also easy to think up scenarios where supposedly constitutionally protected hate speech "helps" cause physical damage: if without the hate speech, a group of people would be left alone, but with the hate speech, other people become convinced that it is morally defensible or even necessary to commit crimes against those people.

I can see no distinction in the constitution to justify this. I understand that this is how US courts interpret the constitution, but everything I can see tells me this is an arbitrary distinction drawn up by US courts with no actual basis in the constitution.

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#137
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different from Charles Manson claiming that The Beatles were sending him coded messages telling him to start a race war, or David Berkowitz claiming that his neighbor's dog was telling him to kill people? Do we get to blame Karl Marx for the tens of millions who have been murdered by his followers?

It is ironic that you use Manson as an example. He was convicted of murder despite not directly committing the murders or ordering the murders to be done. He is in jail for the how his speech inspired others to act. These are trials we are talking about. We don’t have to believe everything that is said. We can let a jury look at the situation and make a decision. A reasonable person wouldn’t consider any Beatles lyri…

Manson was convicted for explicitly ordering people to carry out specific crimes, not for some vaguely-defined "hate speech".

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#138
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ironic that you use Manson as an example. He was convicted of murder despite not directly committing the murders or ordering the murders to be done. He is in jail for the how his speech inspired others to act. These are trials we are talking about. We don’t have to believe everything that is said. We can let a jury look at the situation and make a decision. A reasonable person wouldn’t consider any Beatles lyri…

Manson was convicted for explicitly ordering people to carry out specific crimes, not for some vaguely-defined "hate speech".

Here is the first paragraph of Manson's Wikipedia page:

>Charles Milles Manson (né Maddox; November 12, 1934 – November 19, 2017) was an American criminal and musician who led the Manson Family, a cult based in California, in the late 1960s. Some of the members committed a series of nine murders at four locations in July and August 1969. In 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. The prosecution contended that, while Manson never directly ordered the murders, his ideology constituted an overt act of conspiracy.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#139
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As other comments said, this argument, while sounding superficially logical, does not agree with reality: most Western European countries don't share the same idea of free speech as in America, yet they continue to be democratic.

>Western European countries don't share the same idea of free speech as in America, yet they continue to be democratic. But are they really? Can you really claim to be democratic when you have wholesale determined that only approved speech can be uttered? How does democracy work when some can speak and others cannot?

Why do you need the freedom to mutter hate speech about protected characteristics? What good does that do for democracy?

Re: Is Hate Speech Legal?

#140
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manson was convicted for explicitly ordering people to carry out specific crimes, not for some vaguely-defined "hate speech".

Here is the first paragraph of Manson's Wikipedia page: >Charles Milles Manson (né Maddox; November 12, 1934 – November 19, 2017) was an American criminal and musician who led the Manson Family, a cult based in California, in the late 1960s. Some of the members committed a series of nine murders at four locations in July and August 1969. In 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit mu…

The jury apparently believed otherwise.

Besides, the history of the legal system is rife with instances of juries going along with prosecutorial bullshit.

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