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Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

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Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#31

Post by eclark »

eddsh1994 wrote: post #23
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

What does your startup do? I'm not 100% sure based on the blurb, but keen to see product ideas where that tech stack shines :)

We haven't launched yet (Q1 Next year is the target), so the landing page isn't great yet.

We're a platform as a service that you can install on any cloud via Kubernetes, or on your own self hosted Kubernetes.

So distributed systems, automated remediations, machine learning ops, etc are the areas we're using elixir.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#32

Post by tiffanyh »

eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

What’s been your experience with Live View?

I ask because I’m under the impression that using it comes with some sizable scaling problems, which somewhat defeats the point of using Erlang in the first place.

I could be wrong though. Would like to learn more.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#33

Post by sodapopcan »

enraged_camel wrote: post #25
tiffanyh wrote: post #6

Elixir/Phoenix has hit full-stride. I feel like the next big unlock in user adoption is continued improvements to BeamAsm. Hopefully something on the order of 100-200% raw performance speed up. Note: I’m talking about raw perf, not concurrency. A few other additions to Phoenix 1.7 include: - verified routes - tailwind built in - additional web server support (bandit) https://www.phoenixframework.org/blog/phoenix-1.7-…

Actually, I think the next big unlock in user adoption is static typing. Lack of it is frequently cited as the number one reason that makes people hesitate in switching to Elixir. I know it is an active research project right now, and I hope it bears fruit.

Based on the number of attempts to add static typing to Erlang, I don't see this ever happening.

I know the author of Gleam is going full-time working on it, but I really know much about it or how it gets around the problems with statically typing message-passing. I'm perfectly happy working in dynamic languages and find Elixir's type hinting to be more than adequate.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#34

Post by lnxg33k1 »

thex10 wrote: post #30
lnxg33k1 wrote: post #24

Makes little difference to me, it has been few years now that I create API backends consumed by separated frontends, them being either CLI or JS etc. If anything for me this approach has done wonders for e2e tests using api mockservers But probably for simpler projects and new starters makes sense But I would really suggest anyone out there just to avoid backend-frameworks-based view/templating (guess json responses…

> But I would really suggest anyone out there just to avoid backend-frameworks-based view/templating I personally struggle to let go of backend templating. It's so easy to translate your data into the right pieces of markup in the template, and just serve the fully-baked HTML to the user instantly. How should I be looking at this differently?

I think few reasons that made me go with this new (for me, at the time) approach were:

- Backend/API that can be consumed by anything, are frontend-agnostic

- Frontend that depends on JSON/source-agnostic data so that can have functionality tested faster (no "proper"/"dynamic" backend involved, just give it some ApiBlueprint/swagger mock server

- The frontend rendering isn't a concern of the backend removing some load

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#35

Post by benatkin »

anamexis wrote: post #28
benatkin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You six months ago: "I hate Java. Can I use Kotlin without touching it whatsoever?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32037125 You realize that js and java are the native languages for the web and Android, right?

What is your point?

Just to point out that "ZERO react/JS nonsense" is based on looking down on mainstream languages even after they've improved and even though the platforms use them.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#36

Post by eclark »

tiffanyh wrote: post #32
eclark wrote: post #19

We're building a startup ( https://www.batteriesincl.com/ ) with Elixir and Phoenix 1.7rc (git master really). It's been amazing; I could not be happier. - We went hard on components and it's made building UI's easy. In fact I wrote a test library to make component testing easier. - Live view is so easy with a good component library. I'm not a designer, but with snappy interactions and easy to use components, it's no…

What’s been your experience with Live View? I ask because I’m under the impression that using it comes with some sizable scaling problems, which somewhat defeats the point of using Erlang in the first place. I could be wrong though. Would like to learn more.

LiveView has been pretty great. Mostly it's just a couple of `handle_event` methods away and we have a fully reactive UI.

I haven't seen any scaling issues for LiveView. Under the hood there's a websocket that push and pull events from a running GenServer for each session. Since each process is independent it's horizontally scalable as long as your able to route websockets to the same process in a cluster.

While not the same, I do know that single machine has been able to scale to a couple of million connections ( https://www.phoenixframework.org/blog/the-road-to-2-million-... ) with phoenix channels. Which are harder to scale than independent live views. Also our use case is for smaller scale than that (Not too many companies have a million people looking at their ml deploy pipelines) so I haven't been too worried.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#38

Post by tiffanyh »

eclark wrote: post #36
tiffanyh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s been your experience with Live View? I ask because I’m under the impression that using it comes with some sizable scaling problems, which somewhat defeats the point of using Erlang in the first place. I could be wrong though. Would like to learn more.

LiveView has been pretty great. Mostly it's just a couple of `handle_event` methods away and we have a fully reactive UI. I haven't seen any scaling issues for LiveView. Under the hood there's a websocket that push and pull events from a running GenServer for each session. Since each process is independent it's horizontally scalable as long as your able to route websockets to the same process in a cluster. While not…

@chrismccord

If you’re reading this, would be super interesting to update this 7-year-old benchmark to use Live View (and the latest stack). Thanks for all you do btw.

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#39

Post by eclark »

freedomben wrote: post #10
gnutrino wrote: post #7

This makes sense to me. Views always seemed a like unnecessary boilerplate to me. Better to keep all the code together in one module, and just import common functions. On the other hand, I don't typically like defining the template in a sigil, unless it's a really small one, so I probably won't do that much.

I agree in the case of HTML rendering, but I write a lot of JSON APIs and putting the JSON definition in the View has been very pleasant. It didn't say in OP, but how does this change an API? Maybe a `GreetJSON` instead of `GreetHTML`?

Correct. You write a moduleJSON. So this is about what we have for one of our controller/views:

  defmodule MyWeb.SystemStateJSON do
    def index(%{summary: summary}) do
      %{data: summary}
    end
  end

Re: Phoenix 1.7 is View-less

#40

Post by h0l0cube »

tiffanyh wrote: post #29
enraged_camel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think the next big unlock in user adoption is static typing. Lack of it is frequently cited as the number one reason that makes people hesitate in switching to Elixir. I know it is an active research project right now, and I hope it bears fruit.

Has anyone figured out how to do static typing in Erlang yet? FB a few years ago announced they were going to work on it for WhatsApp but then it was indefinitely delayed. There’s also been a few other attempt, but I don’t believe anyone has succeeded. I know Gleam exists but haven’t dug into it. Anyone more in the know care to share?

Jose has been working with some PhDs to attempt to implement static typing

https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2022/10/05/my-future-with-elixi...

In the meantime I don’t know what people have against using @spec. It’s a far more powerful type specification than the majority of static-typed languages out there

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