Live data from Hacker News

Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

popehat.substack.com

181–190 of 231 posts

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#181
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the parent comment mentions science maybe I can get a response to my scientific observation. I do not think they are constantly told this. This is my first interaction with a tarot believing person online. I wrote my comment with the hope that I can learn their scientific approach to tarot. If not, what makes them believe it is even remotely real.

I don't see where they mentioned that tarot is scientific. I think you misinterpreted their English

Indeed. What I was trying to say was that police and criminal investigations have a reasonable amount of science to ascertain guilt. (Aside some of the junk science used: blood spatter analysis, lie detectors, etc).

Tarot can be mechanistic or intuitive. It's my belief that we don't yet have the science understand to explain how it does and doesn't work.

And NOBODY should be making public accusations based on a tarot reading. That's just ethically wrong to begin with, aside legal and civil damages caused.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#182
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have very limited experience of Tarot readings, and I have never been to a professional reader. But I have been trained to read them by somebody who has produced their own deck, so they are quite into it. My limited understanding is that one can ”read” them so that the subject is questioning the cards and the person doing the reading is kind of guiding the process. This works, because we repeat patterns in our life…

Thanks for the honest reply. So why not do psychotherapy then? I know there are arguments against psychotherapy, but surely all of it doubly applies to Tarot reading -- which is way less regulated, with far less oversight and peer review (I mean it in the broadest possible sense, of course I don't expect a peer reviewed article on "Nature")?

[dead]

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#183

Greetings. I'm rather new here and a friend steered me towards here. I'm a pagan, and unfortunately this has caused a rather ugly stir in our communities. In recent (last 1.5 years), TikTok has been the primary contributing 'terrible occultists, witches, and pagans'. Their practices equate to what we would describe as cargo cultism, commercialism, and general lack of any understanding what we do. Most of us look down…

This is a very enlightening comment, thank you! Some commentators might take issue with the very last word: 'science'... Regarding symbology, for both intuitive and mechanistic readings, isn't there a lot that can be interpreted - in many different ways - from even a single symbol, let alone a string of symbols? Edit: adding this part for anyone who wants to dismiss this as pseudoscience. Jung devoted much of his lif…

Ah indeed. It was my intent to compare tarot and esoterism to that of evidentiary science in a criminal setting. DNA evidence is a reproducible fact of being present at a scene. And other crime scene investigators can prove it in a scientific setting. But alas, I was tired last night and didn't come across the way ai had intended.

> Regarding symbology, for both intuitive and mechanistic readings, isn't there a lot that can be interpreted - in many different ways - from even a single symbol, let alone a string of symbols?

Well in a mechanistic reading, I would expect the readings to mostly coincide, as long as the readers were using the same decks. Different decks have different symbology, and those readings can have very different results.... But again, for the same decks, would expect a similar reading.

It's the intuitive readings that will throw a major curve ball. In those readings (I do both, btw) I will receive mental pictures, smells, sensations, and more of a reading I do for others. The card symbolism starts me to see those hidden senses (occult as occluded from sight). This tiktoker may have gotten her image intuitively... But how would you know it wasn't a student in her class, or someone was targeting her for being in gender studies, or she pulled it from someone else who happened to be thinking about this prof? And many times, an intuitive reading won't make sense until something else happens. That's happened to me a few times, with a eureka moment days or weeks later.

And with intuitive readings, I have gotten pictures of people, smells of perfume and cologne, maps of areas, and other hidden things. I approach them as 'features of interest'.. certainly not as some presumption of guilt!

I'm certainly not expecting anyone else to believe me. And I have no way to prove it, other than anecdotes by me and those whom I've done readings before. This is just my anecdote of someone who's been in the occult for 15+ years, and seen more than my fair share of craziness.

But this whole debacle of a TikTok reader making public accusations is just sickening.... And falls in line with the types that call themselves "baby witches". For example, it is considered gross form to do 3rd party readings, which this was. It's also in terrible form to make accusations, even if 100% legal and no civil action.

Frankly, I sincerely hope this tiktoker loses their shirt in the lawsuit. It is abhorrent and unconscionable to do what they did. And I hope the prof is able to restore and maintain their status as a professional they are.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#184
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the tarot cards have any bearing on what you tell each person, or are you admitting they are just an excuse and what you say to each people is based on other things? Because I can sort of understand the latter, but how would you even justify the former here on HN, a forum for tech and science oriented people?

The sense I get from the person, what the cards say, and what my own predispositions say, all have a bearing on what I say during a reading. As for justifying the part determined by the cards, I can offer two: -they might simply be a way of limiting what I can say since I'm not going to tell someone something completely counter to the traditional meaning. That limitation might force me to be more creative than if I w…

Have you ever considered that your practise might be harming real people based on what sounds like pretty much inferences? Like you might just be messing up a perfectly good relationship someone has, or anything like that?

I got fired from a job one time because the woman running it decided I was the reason that the business was "cursed". I got yelled at in French, a language I don't understand, and only understood after the other person I was working with found me in a nearby park confused as to why I had just been yelled at and fired. Turns out boss had hired this guy to come in and do a tarot reading, and because of my star sign and the reading he said I was the reason things weren't working (It was literally because she had purchased a grill from wal-mart which had lied about how hot it could get instead of investing in something commercial). Even better was how she shut the whole business down right after this, all based on the word of one man with a deck of medieval divination cards which she seemed to put all of her belief in.

As a result I fucking lie about my birthday to strangers to say I'm an aquarius and I find people like me a lot more. I honestly do my best to avoid those people though, don't want the experience of someone making up insane bullshit and blaming me arbitrarily again. That was horrible.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#185
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’re adding anything to anyone’s comment with that. Do you think they aren’t constantly told this?

Since the parent comment mentions science maybe I can get a response to my scientific observation. I do not think they are constantly told this. This is my first interaction with a tarot believing person online. I wrote my comment with the hope that I can learn their scientific approach to tarot. If not, what makes them believe it is even remotely real.

I mentioned science in the frame of evidence in a criminal investigation. It didnt come across as such. I fell asleep not too long after that comment.

> I do not think they are constantly told this.

I definitely have been told this. Major practices are called religion, whereas minor practices are just 'cult' and weird. The existing larger religons' congregants are the worst to demean me and my practices, all the whole doing it themselves. But no matter.

I didn't get into tarot until after I became a pagan. I had a whole string of 'strangely coincidential' things that happened to me and people around me that have no relation to how they would in science. And that includes doing private rituals, and 2 people who don't know each other, directly asking about them in detail. They both admitted they could see what I did.

Again, I recognize the extreme personal nature, and no proof. (In a way, it's similar to a ZKP where recording it and showing it after the fact gives no proof.)

> I wrote my comment with the hope that I can learn their scientific approach to tarot.

The mechanistic reading is the boring one. Basically you just read the book and apply the straightforward answer to the question based on the book descriptions.

An intuitive reading is when you get pictures in your mind, and feel senses that others can't. The only equipment I know can do this is an fMRI. I certainly cannot construct one, nor find someone who'd do occult/divinatory research. I'd be willing though.

As for my other backgrounds, I'm a cloud/systems engineer by profession, so I'm well aware of the scientific method, and how my pagan practices are mostly irreconcilable with my scientific and engineering upbringing. I would love to connect the 2 realms together, but given what I do, and the research lab and equipment required, is highly unlikely I ever will do that.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#186

Ken has interesting views, especially on free speech and what qualifies as such, and his relationship with Twitter (yes, a hot topic) and its users are especially interesting because he frequently and consistently contradicts and undermines himself. Unfortunately, or fortunately for him, he prunes his Twitter timeline so the examples aren't there anymore. So take what I said with a grain of salt, but it is true.

[deleted]

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#187

So, if I randomly generate headlines of varying rabid mania, I am not liable for defamation because I know they are random rubbish, but I still get the ad revenue ? Isn't this the business model for all current online news sources .. It does feel however it ought to be illegal - much like pissing in the drinking water.

[deleted]

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#188
post #153

Totally off topic, but when I was at school, one of my friends had a trick Tarot deck where every card was Death, which was obviously a lot of fun for playing tricks on people. I cannot find such a deck made commercially anywhere today. It could be my inability to search Amazon/Aliexpress, but were such decks once available? Or did they buy dozens of decks and make one themselves?

[deleted]

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#189

Interestingly the statement that “ defamation requires a provably false statement of fact “ is not true in all jurisdictions. German law makes a distinction between „Verleumdung“ which is indeed like defamation and “üble Nachrede“, which only requires a statement to not be probably true.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN