Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#171

Post by GuB-42 » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

glandium wrote: post #105

niemandhier wrote: post #84

Interestingly the statement that “ defamation requires a provably false statement of fact “ is not true in all jurisdictions. German law makes a distinction between „Verleumdung“ which is indeed like defamation and “üble Nachrede“, which only requires a statement to not be probably true.

In Japan, defamation doesn't require falsehood. Yes, you can be punished for defamation for having told the truth!

I don't know about Japan, but some statements may be true but misleading.

For example, saying that someone is involved in a crime it a way that make people think he is guilty when he is, in fact, the victim. For example, "Mr.X is involved in a series of robberies" when he has been robbed.

Other cases where defamation can be invoked is with illegally obtained, private information. For example "Mr.X has been diagnosed with $medical_condition, so...", a clear violation of medical privacy, especially if the one making the accusation is a doctor.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#172

Post by kukkeliskuu » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #158

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who reads Tarot for friends, and may do so professionally in the new year, it depends a lot on the reading and the type of reading. Any reading that offers advice is opinion, but some opinions should be stated with more confidence than others. Given identical cards I might tell one person "Get out, he'll hurt you if you stay!" and another "I'm not sure this relationship is right for you, if you stay there'…

Are you arguing the tarot cards have any bearing on what you tell each person, or are you admitting they are just an excuse and what you say to each people is based on other things? Because I can sort of understand the latter, but how would you even justify the former here on HN, a forum for tech and science oriented people?

I have very limited experience of Tarot readings, and I have never been to a professional reader. But I have been trained to read them by somebody who has produced their own deck, so they are quite into it.

My limited understanding is that one can ”read” them so that the subject is questioning the cards and the person doing the reading is kind of guiding the process.

This works, because we repeat patterns in our life, and subconsciously we must know these patterns, otherwise we could not repeat these patterns.

The cards are kind of giving us another angle to these patterns, allowing those subconscious patterns to become conscious.

When we learn these patterns that we repeat in life, we can become free of them. So in a way it is poor man’s psychitheraphy.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#173

Post by the_af » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

mbg721 wrote: post #157

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of something similar is Chakras. Chakras are a map for sensation, they're not meant to be taken literally. Another example is energy manipulation. This is also a map. It's not meant to represent energy in the sense of physics. It's weird that people who seem otherwise so smart aren't able to conceptualize such abstractions or see how they can be useful. The map is not the territory.

Cue the GTA rant "Chakra Attack", complete with the side-rant about coconut-water. I'm personally convinced that a lot of wisdom that's considered mystical and fringey is actually wise, and would be taken seriously under a different name. For all the woo surrounding something like feng shui, for example, nobody complains when their apartment is organized so that they can accomplish their daily tasks efficiently--then…

Feng Shui is trivially debunked by the fact not two "specialists" will tell you the same thing about how to arrange your apartment; they will in fact often tell you contradictory things.

If Feng Shui proponents are going to then argue "well, it's just common sense and/or the opinion of the practitioner", then that's just called "interior design" and there's no need to dress it as mystical oriental teachings.

How you call things matters. The "woo" part of it is harmful, at the very least because it teaches magical thinking, which is a net negative.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#174

Post by the_af » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #172

the_af wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the tarot cards have any bearing on what you tell each person, or are you admitting they are just an excuse and what you say to each people is based on other things? Because I can sort of understand the latter, but how would you even justify the former here on HN, a forum for tech and science oriented people?

I have very limited experience of Tarot readings, and I have never been to a professional reader. But I have been trained to read them by somebody who has produced their own deck, so they are quite into it. My limited understanding is that one can ”read” them so that the subject is questioning the cards and the person doing the reading is kind of guiding the process. This works, because we repeat patterns in our life…

Thanks for the honest reply.

So why not do psychotherapy then? I know there are arguments against psychotherapy, but surely all of it doubly applies to Tarot reading -- which is way less regulated, with far less oversight and peer review (I mean it in the broadest possible sense, of course I don't expect a peer reviewed article on "Nature")?

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#175

Post by twic » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

No comment on whether it is defamatory, but in the UK, i suspect this would be illegal under the witchcraft laws.

(which, because this is an embarrassing ruin of a country, means the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008)

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#176

Post by the_af » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #166

the_af wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the tarot cards have any bearing on what you tell each person, or are you admitting they are just an excuse and what you say to each people is based on other things? Because I can sort of understand the latter, but how would you even justify the former here on HN, a forum for tech and science oriented people?

The sense I get from the person, what the cards say, and what my own predispositions say, all have a bearing on what I say during a reading. As for justifying the part determined by the cards, I can offer two: -they might simply be a way of limiting what I can say since I'm not going to tell someone something completely counter to the traditional meaning. That limitation might force me to be more creative than if I w…

> I also would hope tech and science oriented people wouldn't rule out that the question being asked has a bearing on what cards show up before running an experiment

Yes, we would rule it out, short of the Tarot reader secretly manipulating the deck.

There's no polite way of saying this, so I'll be straight: that's magical thinking. You cannot influence what cards show up just by the question you ask: you can only do so by actually manipulating the deck with your bare hands (or having a trick deck).

There's no two ways about this. Experiments have been conducted time and time again. Anyone able to reproduce the claimed effect would be rich by now.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#177

Post by samman » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #166

the_af wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the tarot cards have any bearing on what you tell each person, or are you admitting they are just an excuse and what you say to each people is based on other things? Because I can sort of understand the latter, but how would you even justify the former here on HN, a forum for tech and science oriented people?

The sense I get from the person, what the cards say, and what my own predispositions say, all have a bearing on what I say during a reading. As for justifying the part determined by the cards, I can offer two: -they might simply be a way of limiting what I can say since I'm not going to tell someone something completely counter to the traditional meaning. That limitation might force me to be more creative than if I w…

Could you summarize a theory or two about the mechanism by which the question asked could affect what cards are drawn?

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#178

Post by burkaman » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #166

the_af wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the tarot cards have any bearing on what you tell each person, or are you admitting they are just an excuse and what you say to each people is based on other things? Because I can sort of understand the latter, but how would you even justify the former here on HN, a forum for tech and science oriented people?

The sense I get from the person, what the cards say, and what my own predispositions say, all have a bearing on what I say during a reading. As for justifying the part determined by the cards, I can offer two: -they might simply be a way of limiting what I can say since I'm not going to tell someone something completely counter to the traditional meaning. That limitation might force me to be more creative than if I w…

> before running an experiment

No such experiment is possible, because the cards don't have single meanings. Any completely random set of results will look meaningful to a tarot card reader, because that's the whole point of the reading. Can you imagine an experiment that would allow for a negative result?

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#179

Post by inadequatespace » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

borbulon wrote: post #149

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #103

I would ask the Tarot reader if he/she believes he/she is telling a fact or an opinion. First would make him/her liable, but second would probably hurt their business. Tarot cards are very interesting by the way. Jung’s archetypes are based on major arcana cards, and as most personality tests (such as MBTI) are based on Jung’s theories, actually the HR department is kind of playing Tarot when they make you take perso…

I like Tarot cards. IMO If you're going to cards to get a Truth, you're going about it the wrong way. What they do do very well is give you another way of looking at the situation you're asking about, maybe things to consider that you hadn't before. Like the question "how will my year unfold" isn't right, it's more like "what should I keep in mind this year?" They're also good as a creative game, in the vein of Burro…

Yeah, I think that’s even the way that they are meant to be used, at least if the guides that I’ve read are to be believed. Nothing occult at play according to the guides. So, ironically, the common culture actually misrepresents them as being prognostic.

Re: Can a Tarot card reading be defamatory?

#180

Post by atkailash » Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #103

I would ask the Tarot reader if he/she believes he/she is telling a fact or an opinion. First would make him/her liable, but second would probably hurt their business. Tarot cards are very interesting by the way. Jung’s archetypes are based on major arcana cards, and as most personality tests (such as MBTI) are based on Jung’s theories, actually the HR department is kind of playing Tarot when they make you take perso…

[dead]