Live data from Hacker News

When do we have a scientific fact?

blog.oup.com

71–80 of 119 posts

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#71

The article seems to be making it's definition of "fact" as a guide to policymakers on what should be accepted as fact. I think this is all a bit of a red herring. The question is how do policymakers deal with politically charged topics. And I personally haven't seen cases where more research or "science" is the answer, it's just crutch that people use to try and make their political point. The article mentions clima…

What if climate change turns out to be a hoax and we made the world better for nothing?

I, for one, would hate to live in a better world.

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#72
post #67

This article reminder me of this classic from 1994 by Steven Jay Gould, "Evolution as a fact and theory". [1] I adore SJG but this is one essay where I disagreed. Actually started the first day of a research design course in a pretty heated debate with the dead wood professor where this essay was the topic of discussion, he couldn't wrap his head around taking epistemological or practical issue with the label of scie…

There are two worlds colliding here.

The scientific world is primarily oriented towards finding stable consensus truths that are independent of individual bias.

The political world is primarily oriented towards persuasion and behaviour modification - either for personal gain, or (more rarely) to promote fairness, equality, and perhaps even opportunity.

To politicians, scientific facts are only one of many available tools for persuasion, and they're not particularly good at it.

These worlds are incompatible to such an extent that people operating in one world are fundamentally unable to understand the other.

So the question is really "How do you create a political consensus?" The answer is well-known - you set up numerous apparently independent think tanks and PR operations to promote your message across multiple media, you put journalists-for-hire in positions of notability and influence, you design soundbite concepts and memes that spread the message virally. You use psychological techniques learned from the ad industries and corporate psychology to dramatise and frame your message to make it more personally relatable.

For bonus points you set up an enemy who opposes your message and you demonise, belittle, and humiliate them.

Ideally you frame the "debate" to make disagreement literally unthinkable, while also making all supporters feel as if their beliefs are entirely their own, arrived at rationally and objectively.

Scientific consensus on its own will do none of this. And a scientific "fact" is powerless against this process.

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#73

The article seems to be making it's definition of "fact" as a guide to policymakers on what should be accepted as fact. I think this is all a bit of a red herring. The question is how do policymakers deal with politically charged topics. And I personally haven't seen cases where more research or "science" is the answer, it's just crutch that people use to try and make their political point. The article mentions clima…

What if climate change turns out to be a hoax and we made the world better for nothing?

This presumes that all efforts to curb climate change make the world better.

Global regulation of fundamental economic development represents a shift to authoritarianism. That's not a positive move if you believe in individual liberty.

It also represents a significant loss of wealth. We pay more for the same services.

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#74
Humans want "Laws of Nature" which are set in stone, easy to understand, written to kinda favor them, and subject to the sort of wording twists, rules-gaming, and lawyering that they're always doing with human social rules (including laws, promises, contracts, & such), to get away with crap.

Nature really doesn't care what humans want. Read every Superman comics ever written, dress up like him, jump off the cliff - and you'll go "splat" at the bottom.

Nature also never shows anyone the magic stone, which has all the rules written on it. Babies figure out pretty early that dropped objects fall to the ground. After a lot of bloody "splat"s, clever grown-ups figured out how to run off cliffs with parachutes & hang gliders and stuff, and live to brag about it. Usually. Things still go wrong sometimes.

Pretty much everything I've seen about on subjects like seems to boil down to humans wanting Nature to have rules that work their way, Nature not caring what humans want, and humans arguing about it anyway.

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#75

This article is garbage. If we agreed that 95% consensus was “scientific fact” then plenty of “truths” that we knew back in the past would never be revisited. For example, homosexuality was thought of as a choice as recently as the 1980s. Or high fat diets caused heart disease. Or larger heads equals smarter people. The reason why scientific facts don’t exist is because the truly great scientists before this author k…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#76
As a scientist I disagree. I would rather call just facts as facts, and the rest can still be called theories/models/understanding. I.e. only stuff that is directly observed can be a fact. For sure I think the evidence of human caused global warming is overwhelming and is based on to large degree simple physics, I would still not call that a fact.

I think relabeling some theories as facts is potentially dangerous and may prevent future progress.

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#77
post #65
post #28

The article portrays Popperian falsifiability as a negative thing, when in fact it is exactly the kind of defining criterion that the author is hunting for. Except it is a criterion of a scientific _theory_ , not a fact derived from it; because the natural sciences are entirely empirical disciplines (today), theories can only be _disproved_ , not proved, by experiments. Progress - in the form of convergence towards t…

Is Popperian falsifiability itself falsifiable?

[deleted]

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#78
post #65
post #28

The article portrays Popperian falsifiability as a negative thing, when in fact it is exactly the kind of defining criterion that the author is hunting for. Except it is a criterion of a scientific _theory_ , not a fact derived from it; because the natural sciences are entirely empirical disciplines (today), theories can only be _disproved_ , not proved, by experiments. Progress - in the form of convergence towards t…

Is Popperian falsifiability itself falsifiable?

To whoever downvoted: Why downvote instead of discussing the idea?

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#79
This seems to be, on the face of it, an incredibly superficial take. To start with there is a seminal work on just this topic: Genesis and Development of a Scientific Fact, Ludwik Fleck

Then to summarize the "there are no facts" position as "the idea that many philosophers of science muse that such ice ages probably didn’t exist and are just “nice ideas” that are currently popular amongst scientists who have been indoctrinated into a particular paradigm." is in parts wrong and on top of that incredibly misleading. I challenge you to find a single philosopher of sciemce who would assert that "ice ages probably didn’t exist". This imaginary philosopher does not exist, doubly so as this strawman would assert a fact about the world (specifically that the probability that ice ages have existed is low), in blatant contradiction to the "there are no facts" idea.

Re: When do we have a scientific fact?

#80
Author seems to be throwing a polite and courteous tantrum lacking serious intellectual rigor. Kuhn and Poppler left lasting marks because they were, in the author's apparent intended sense of the word, expressing facts.

There are 10,000 things wrong with this whole approach. The point, I assume, is that we do have some vitally important things that need doing sometimes, and wasting enormous finite resources trying to achieve even consensus, nevermind unanimity, has been rendered impossible or senseless or horrifically dangerous. Yep. That's a real problem (one might call it a fact).

This avenue is a dead end, though.

Post reply on HN