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What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

bbc.com

341–350 of 644 posts

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#341

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

This is the kind of "it worked for my kid" bullshit that drives me up the wall.

With my oldest we bought into comments like this and tried to always comfort him when he was crying. He would not stop crying. We stayed up with him an absurd amount of hours trying every idea in the book to soothe him to sleep and nothing worked. He was probably getting 6 hours of sleep a day at a time when he was supposed to be sleeping 18. He lost a lot of weight and we were scared and exhausted.

After a few weeks of that my wife finally put him into his bassinet and stepped away. She sat there next to his crib crying with him for 5 minutes, and then he fell asleep and slept for the longest he had in his life. That moment was the turning point from weight loss to weight gain and from barely sleeping to sleeping normally. In spite of all of our worries that something was terribly wrong, all that was required was to let him be. He's now 3 years old and still hates to sleep, but he's as healthy as any other kid both physically and emotionally.

My only advice to new parents today is to accept what everyone else says as well intentioned and then do what works best for your kid. Every child is different, and people who try to claim that their method is the only humane way to treat a kid need more exposure to the real world.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#342

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

My parents' generation (in the UK) were physically beaten as children. It was a normal part of parenting and part of school. My hope is that one day we will consider this emotionally abusive behaviour as seriously as we we now look at physical abuse. Though I don't hold out much hope. Especially as there are still some people holding out for the right to hit their children even now.

Is it emotionally abusive to ignore a child's hours long temper tantrum after they're told they can't have ice cream for dinner?

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#343

Read the article, and many of the comments here. I have a hard time squaring a lot of the hard and fast rules against my own experience. Certainly one persons life can’t detract from large scale statistics. However, I have 6 children. They have all responded to methods of behavioral training in wildly different ways. My oldest two could not do sleep training. 10 months of trying for almost every night and they did no…

> I have a hard time squaring a lot of the hard and fast rules against my own experience.

I think it's the same thing like in other self-help sub-genres: any of such hard and fast rule will work very well for some people in some situations. That's why there are so many of such rules, why they're often mutually conflicting, and why they all have armies of evangelists behind them.

> Certainly one persons life can’t detract from large scale statistics.

Conversely, those statistics talk about what's average, typical. Some things have high enough variance that even most solid RCT only works as a guideline for policy at scale.

I have only two children, but it's clear to me both develop according to completely different trajectories. It kind of makes sense as, even if us parents didn't change in any way, and the environment stayed constant, our younger daughter is still spending a lot of time in the company of her sister. That's a huge additional high-variance input source :).

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#344
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Babies cry for a reason (to get their needs met). Yep. Including, "I woke up and I don't yet know how to put myself back to sleep," which is where "sleep training" helps. I, too, would be curious as someone else asked, if you have children.

When we sleep trained our kids, this was exactly our interpretation as well. You are literally training them how to sleep on their own. Yes they will be uncomfortable for a little while and yes they will cry because it is a new situation but it's truly for their own good. You are giving your kid the gift of being able to know how to sleep and fall back asleep. You can do such training without being a cruel hard ass a…

Incidentally, potty training can also involve a lot of crying, tantrums, etc. I would say I don't see the uproar of parents claiming it's child abuse, but the numbers of children past 36 mo that are not potty trained is pretty shocking.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologise, I’ve not read literature on it, or the particular methodology you describe. I’m not judging you. That said, whatever the merits of a structured approach, for every parent that diligently follows them, there are others that are less careful. And I’ve met them. I’m responding to sentiments like “I just ignore them and they go to sleep eventually”, “don’t go and check, he only wants attention” from other pa…

You're throwing around accusations of abuse despite the fact that you admit you haven't read literature on it. Why are you contributing your admittedly uneducated opinion on this? Go read some of the literature instead. Stop judging parents you've never met (and yes, despite you saying you're not judging, you obviously are). Just because something worked for you doesn't mean it works for all babies or families, and i…

I think this is a dangerous practice. Read the literature on attachment theory.

https://www.attachmentparenting.org/ensure-safe-sleep-physic...

"Research shows us that an infant is not neurologically or developmentally capable of calming or soothing himself to sleep in a way that is healthy. The part of the brain that helps with self-soothing isn't well developed until the child is two and a half to three years of age. Until that time, a child depends on his parents to help him calm down and learn to regulate his intense feelings."

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at murder rates in the UK they peaked in the early 2000’s. Maybe those abused boys were taught violence is the answer? There were earlier HN posts attributing the decline in the rate of murder rate/violence crime to countries phasing out lead-gasoline. Now we might never know unless we do a properly controlled experiment.

We've seen exactly the same pattern everywhere in the world when leaded petrol was banned. At this point, we've had our controls, because different countries scrapped lead at different times, and exactly the same trend has been observed. Think of the ones who scrapped it later as acting as the control group for those countries who scrapped it later. Besides, the effect of lead on the human brain had been well known b…

https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_774797_smxx.pdf

> We perform the first meta-analysis of the effect of lead on crime by pooling 529 estimates from 24 studies. We find evidence of publication bias across a range of tests.

> When we restrict our analysis to only high-quality studies that address endogeneity the estimated mean effect size is close to zero.

> When we use the full sample, the mean effect size is a partial correlation coefficient of 0.11, over ten times larger than the high-quality sample.

Interestingly, I met someone on HN once who insisted that effect sizes are always smaller in larger trials because that's just the nature of reality. This does not say anything good about scientists' conceptual understanding of what they're doing.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#347
My wife and I deliberated over this for a month. In the end, we decided that "cry it out" was really just gaming the infant's evolving worldview with a sense of "learned helplessness" - something both of us struggle with individually. So we knew it would be tougher on us - and it definitely was - but the alternative of teaching a baby that the only thing they could really do was "ineffective" was something we couldn't stomach.

At some point we all learn that we're helpless and we can't do shit to change the world... But we didn't want the baby to learn that from _us_.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#348
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A defenseless child wants nothing more than to sleep next to their parent. Everyone sleeps better.

>Everyone sleeps better. This is an absolute that is not true. Many people, even you, may - great! Others may not.

Seriously, I wonder if it's father's saying stuff like this. You just need to go on YouTube and see the abuse that mother's get from infants and small children while co-sleeping.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#349

Having an 11 month old baby I have a few observations: 1 - parents have strong feelings on this topic and sleep is important. 2 - different kids/families seem to have majorly different sleep experiences in the first year 3 - I am skeptical of the literature in this field. Infant sleep feels measurable so it feels like studying it should be feasible, but we're forgetting these are little humans, not plants or bacteria…

We have two kids. One is 3, and the other is 1. Our first was an amazing sleeper. After the first few months, she would mostly sleep in a basinet the entire night. She transitioned to a crib easily, and now sleeps in a bed for about 12 hours per night without getting up. Our second on the other hand was a complete nightmare. Crying for almost the entire night for months on end. He eventually settled down a bit, but w…

We heard similar stories from parents with multiple children. Sleep patterns of each child appears to be quite random.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“A little rap on the knuckles” is less severe than full on beating, but it’s on the gradient of physical violence. Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. And I’m not sure a baby has the same perspective on 15 minutes as the average adult. I’m pretty sure most adults are walking around with unresolved emotional trauma issues that do not serve them, or those around them,…

> Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging You don't know that, there is no evidence for it and it definitely depends on the age. Your post is drammatically different when speaking about a newborn, a 6 or a 12 or 18 months old. Babies absolutely need to learn to self soothe and that crying won't always meet attention too. The idea that unattending a crying baby here and th…

There's plenty of evidence for it. Read the books by Dr. Bruce Perry. Read about attachment theory.

If you read his books, what you will also find is that children respond differently to trauma. So, some children may not be harmed at all by childhood trauma, while others may be deeply affected. The basic fallacy here is that children under the age of three can self-soothe. They cannot. This is all part of infant development.

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