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What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

bbc.com

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Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#291

Post by The_Colonel »

kqr wrote: post #162
loteck wrote: post #58

What we were trying to do was help the parents to teach the kids to self-soothe. So in effect, we weren't saying that they wouldn't wake. We were saying that they would wake, but they wouldn't have to signal their parents. They could go back down into the next sleep cycle. The conversations around sleep training are always rife with folks focusing on their own perceived risks, and the emotional guilt, that come with…

This is one thing I learned only in my third year as a parent. If I tell an adult "I'm worried you'll break that when you poke it so hard" I expect them to either argue to the contrary or stop poking it so hard. For my children, they don't register what I've said until a few days (and attempts) later. It's virtually impossible to teach them something in the moment, it all falls into place later. Super frustrating and…

I think this applies to the adults as well. I've noticed that it takes me some time to change my opinion (on something non-trivial). The first instinct is to maintain your old position.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#292

Post by sanderjd »

mirsadm wrote: post #277
sanderjd wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a bad thing, just like it's not bad for a baby to want to be spoon-fed. But part of growing up is learning new skills, like eating by themselves and soothing themselves to sleep. And a big part of parenting is figuring out the right times and ways to encourage this. You know what has been a far more traumatic growing experience for every kid I've known than learning to sleep independently? Learning to use a…

One thing that has always bothered me is parents trying to justify sleep training as a positive for the child. The reason parents do it is for their own benefit.

So, it's both, for real. Waking up and crying five or six times a night really isn't good for infants and is even worse for toddlers. They need to be well rested for all the learning they do during their days.

But it's also the case that anything that is bad for parents is bad for children. Especially when it comes to sleep deprivation. I'm completely convinced that in my almost-five year old's entire life, the most danger she has ever been in was when we had to drive half an hour to the pediatrician multiple times a week when she was a newborn and we weren't sleeping at all. I may as well have been three or four drinks in every time I drove to the doctor in those early weeks. But driving isn't the only problem. Parents are more irritable, less present, and just generally worse, when they aren't sleeping.

Sleep deprivation isn't just some funny goofy little thing that parents adorably have to deal with; it's a major problem. I didn't even realize this until I started sleeping after a year and a half and had the experience of "waking up" after a few weeks of good sleep. It's an actual problem! It's not just some preference that parents have to be able to sleep.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#293

Post by kungfufrog »

yosito wrote: post #40

My parents let me "cry it out" when I was a kid. I cried so much I got a mild hernia. Mild enough that it has never caused any problems. But it left a bump in my abdomen that I can still feel as a man in my late 30s.

If it's an epigastric hernia (which is most likely, considering it's caused you no issues and hasn't been operated on) then it most likely developed during the very early foetal stage. Epigastric hernias are largely a cosmetic nuisance as it's just fat from the abdominal wall (not intestinal tissue) that's poking through. However, sometimes that fat can get trapped and cause the area to become sore and red, but the body prunes the trapped fat off and reabsorbs it, unlike an abdominal hernia where trapped tissue can quickly become a life-threatening situation due to sepsis.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#294

Post by awillen »

afandian wrote: post #220
jjulius wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. I just commented elsewhere and asked you what your understanding of "sleep training" or "crying it out" entails, but I think this answers it for me - you're ignorant to what actually happens. You do not teach a child that their call for help will be unanswered. You observe them closely as they wake up, listen to how they're crying…

I apologise, I’ve not read literature on it, or the particular methodology you describe. I’m not judging you. That said, whatever the merits of a structured approach, for every parent that diligently follows them, there are others that are less careful. And I’ve met them. I’m responding to sentiments like “I just ignore them and they go to sleep eventually”, “don’t go and check, he only wants attention” from other pa…

You're throwing around accusations of abuse despite the fact that you admit you haven't read literature on it. Why are you contributing your admittedly uneducated opinion on this? Go read some of the literature instead. Stop judging parents you've never met (and yes, despite you saying you're not judging, you obviously are). Just because something worked for you doesn't mean it works for all babies or families, and it's profoundly arrogant of you to assume otherwise.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#295

Post by singpolyma3 »

mirsadm wrote: post #277
sanderjd wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a bad thing, just like it's not bad for a baby to want to be spoon-fed. But part of growing up is learning new skills, like eating by themselves and soothing themselves to sleep. And a big part of parenting is figuring out the right times and ways to encourage this. You know what has been a far more traumatic growing experience for every kid I've known than learning to sleep independently? Learning to use a…

One thing that has always bothered me is parents trying to justify sleep training as a positive for the child. The reason parents do it is for their own benefit.

Just like sending kids to school

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#296

Post by zeroonetwothree »

ryanSrich wrote: post #276
johndhi wrote: post #177

Having an 11 month old baby I have a few observations: 1 - parents have strong feelings on this topic and sleep is important. 2 - different kids/families seem to have majorly different sleep experiences in the first year 3 - I am skeptical of the literature in this field. Infant sleep feels measurable so it feels like studying it should be feasible, but we're forgetting these are little humans, not plants or bacteria…

We have two kids. One is 3, and the other is 1. Our first was an amazing sleeper. After the first few months, she would mostly sleep in a basinet the entire night. She transitioned to a crib easily, and now sleeps in a bed for about 12 hours per night without getting up. Our second on the other hand was a complete nightmare. Crying for almost the entire night for months on end. He eventually settled down a bit, but w…

They aren’t identical twins so you can’t really be sure it’s not genetic.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#297

Post by epolanski »

afandian wrote: post #205
sanderjd wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing a 9-month-old spending 15 minutes calming themselves down before falling asleep to physical abuse is laughably absurd. A big problem with this "debate" is that people conjure images of newborn babies being left to cry for hours, when what is actually predominantly practiced is older infants 6-12 months old being allowed to cry for less than half an hour. After being fed and given a clean diaper and a safe p…

“A little rap on the knuckles” is less severe than full on beating, but it’s on the gradient of physical violence. Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging. And I’m not sure a baby has the same perspective on 15 minutes as the average adult. I’m pretty sure most adults are walking around with unresolved emotional trauma issues that do not serve them, or those around them,…

> Teaching a child that their call for help will not be answered is unkind and damaging

You don't know that, there is no evidence for it and it definitely depends on the age. Your post is drammatically different when speaking about a newborn, a 6 or a 12 or 18 months old.

Babies absolutely need to learn to self soothe and that crying won't always meet attention too.

The idea that unattending a crying baby here and there will produce long lasting trauma has to be proved first, it may actually be positive.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#298

Post by TeMPOraL »

omnibrain wrote: post #283
ineptech wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That evolutionary instinct came from a time when humans lived in communal support networks and new parents had help from extended family, and does not translate well to a world where Mom has to work 9-5 in an office a few months after birth. You might as well express shock that suburbanites don't supplement their diets by foraging for fruit and mushrooms. Besides, it's not like parents 10K years ago had the option to…

> a world where Mom has to work 9-5 in an office a few months after birth That's a cultural problem itself.

Unfortunately, solving a cultural problem is the second most difficult thing to do, after changing laws of physics. Or, as some web article I read the other day put it: society is fixed, biology is mutable.

And it's not just about two-income households. From my personal experience I can say that, even with one parent working, a poorly sleeping child can bring the parents to the brink of divorce, or depression, or both. Given the importance of loving, caring, supporting family for a child's overall health, happiness, and future prospects, it's fair to consider some interventions as trade-offs for the sake of the household. The article mentions this near the end, but then mostly dismisses the concern.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#299

Post by rcpt »

conqueso wrote: post #150

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

> co-sleep

Suffocation risk is real. Don't do this.

Re: What happens when babies are left to cry it out?

#300

Post by awillen »

ineptech wrote: post #272
conqueso wrote: post #150

The fact that this is so commonplace in my culture (USA) is frustrating and enrages me. As a parent, it is your evolutionary instinct to comfort a crying infant. They are quite literally helpless and look to caretakers for all their needs. There's a deep seated biological reason it feels bad to ignore it. The fact that it is so uncommon in other cultures should make this obvious. What are the odds that the rest of th…

That evolutionary instinct came from a time when humans lived in communal support networks and new parents had help from extended family, and does not translate well to a world where Mom has to work 9-5 in an office a few months after birth. You might as well express shock that suburbanites don't supplement their diets by foraging for fruit and mushrooms. Besides, it's not like parents 10K years ago had the option to…

It's astounding to me that so many people on HN, a place where folks generally profess to be driven by science and data, are in this thread just casually throwing around anecdotes and comments about evolutionary instinct while completely ignoring the actual science and data. Doubly so when so many of the comments are pretty vicious towards people who sleep train their babies.
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