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Remote work’s toll on cities

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Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#141

Post by bobwaycott »

ricksunny wrote: post #64

poor-man's market research: Would you (not your belief about others) be interested in co-working / co-living locales, in different countries (think Costa Rica, Tenerife, Zanzibar) with excellent maintained QoS connectivity, and (higher tier offering) where your right to work (local work visa) for your home-country employer / clients was looked after by the company hosting the network of sites? Goal: to liberate you t…

Absolutely, if the locations are a good personal fit. Looking into that right now as a recent empty-nester.

Weekly hopping is too frequent for me, however, and a month feels barely long enough. I’ve been looking at 90-day minimum stays, with a preference for 6 months to a year.

Feel free to reach out if you’d like to chat with someone seriously interested in this.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#142

Post by tharne »

norcon4 wrote: post #136

Maybe I'm biased, but I think cheering on the toll of remote work on cities is being sanguine. Cities have existed for a long time for reasons beyond proximity to work. Their decline will represent a decline in wider society. We centralize people and resources to give everyone better access to resources and economize on infrastructure. This pattern is as old as civilization itself. Bully for you if you can make off w…

> My hot take is that remote work is unnatural and has only taken off because of how laborious commuting and unaffordable housing have become in this country.

Prior to the industrial revolution, most people worked in the same place that they lived. Farmers farmed the land adjacent to their house, shop owners lived above their shops, etc. Working in an office is not natural; working in or adjacent to one's home has been the norm throughout human history.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#143

Post by thewebcount »

analog31 wrote: post #10
ggreer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for remote positions, how does that work? Does everyone move when they change jobs in a city?

Right now, yes and no. I live in a mid sized town in the Midwest. People who are renting, and not tied down by things like having kids in school, are fairly likely to move if a job change alters their commute. However, it's complicated by the fact that they are also influenced by the amenities that different neighborhoods offer. For instance do you prefer lots of hip restaurants, or lots of green space? Once people a…

> People who are renting, and not tied down by things like having kids in school

What? Why do you think that? Plenty of people with children in school live in rented apartments, condos, townhomes, and even houses.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#144

Post by dcre »

bm3719 wrote: post #59
dcre wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still huge returns to concentrating nice in-person things besides work in one place. Nobody is attending zoos, museums, or restaurants remotely.

If transportation accessibility has recently peaked and will invert, with fuel and vehicle prices continuing along current trends, the lower classes become increasingly less mobile. The better off can drive their $100k SUV to fine dining and museums, which may be as close as the nearby town/city center. They might accept that trade-off in exchange for space and separation from urban blight.

Driving an hour sucks no matter how nice your car is.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#145

Post by woodruffw »

norcon4 wrote: post #136

Maybe I'm biased, but I think cheering on the toll of remote work on cities is being sanguine. Cities have existed for a long time for reasons beyond proximity to work. Their decline will represent a decline in wider society. We centralize people and resources to give everyone better access to resources and economize on infrastructure. This pattern is as old as civilization itself. Bully for you if you can make off w…

I largely agree, minus the "unnatural" part: remote work can co-exist with urban development, and does in many places. The US is somewhat unique in the extent to which it's externalized the costs of non-urban (primarily suburban) living; there's no particular reason (other than difficult politics) why we can't price those externalities in and have both strong cities and remote work for those who want.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#146

Post by TuringNYC »

woodruffw wrote: post #139
TuringNYC wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a life-long New Yorker, born and raised. Even I gave up on the city and moved out, despite all the desire to live with low carbon-impact and live a moderate lifestyle w/o cars. At some point, the pain factor becomes too much. I'll give you some examples - Approximately 5-6yrs ago the transit quality in the outer-boroughs (not Manhattan) became so bad that you could spend 2hrs hours switching multiple trains if yo…

> Approximately 5-6yrs ago the transit quality in the outer-boroughs (not Manhattan) became so bad that you could spend 2hrs hours switching multiple trains if you were going into Brooklyn. Trains would mysteriously not arrive, would run express, would claim they have arrived on official apps but the station was closed, etc. Then you think -- in 2hrs I could have commuted into the suburb and lived in a beautiful home…

w/r/t http://dashboard.mta.info/ -- I have a feeling that some of these are timed/theoretical/simulated rather than actual (or at least were at a point.) I literally took photos (need to find them) of cases where the dashboard would show subways arriving but the station/track/side was yellow-taped off.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#147

Post by woodruffw »

TuringNYC wrote: post #146
woodruffw wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Approximately 5-6yrs ago the transit quality in the outer-boroughs (not Manhattan) became so bad that you could spend 2hrs hours switching multiple trains if you were going into Brooklyn. Trains would mysteriously not arrive, would run express, would claim they have arrived on official apps but the station was closed, etc. Then you think -- in 2hrs I could have commuted into the suburb and lived in a beautiful home…

w/r/t http://dashboard.mta.info/ -- I have a feeling that some of these are timed/theoretical/simulated rather than actual (or at least were at a point.) I literally took photos (need to find them) of cases where the dashboard would show subways arriving but the station/track/side was yellow-taped off.

The technique used to calculate APT/ATT (the underlying metrics for timeliness) are documented here (you have to click through a few folds)[1].

They don't appear to be simulated or theoretical: they're based on riders' swipes into the system. They do make certain ridership assumptions, however, because of the limited data (e.g. that customers use the same "corridor" during weekdays, and that the next swipe-in corresponds roughly to the last exit during weekdays). Those assumptions don't strike me as unreasonable, given the MTA's inability to collect exit data.

Edit: The page goes into detail on those restrictions as well. Interestingly, it sounds like OMNY gives them more precise timestamps, and thus has allowed them to improve the quality of the their metrics over the past ~2 years. The fact that they haven't swung substantially during OMNY's rollout indicates that there wasn't significant error in the previous data.

[1]: http://dashboard.mta.info/Help

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#148

Post by TuringNYC »

woodruffw wrote: post #147
TuringNYC wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

w/r/t http://dashboard.mta.info/ -- I have a feeling that some of these are timed/theoretical/simulated rather than actual (or at least were at a point.) I literally took photos (need to find them) of cases where the dashboard would show subways arriving but the station/track/side was yellow-taped off.

The technique used to calculate APT/ATT (the underlying metrics for timeliness) are documented here (you have to click through a few folds)[1]. They don't appear to be simulated or theoretical: they're based on riders' swipes into the system. They do make certain ridership assumptions, however, because of the limited data (e.g. that customers use the same "corridor" during weekdays, and that the next swipe-in corresp…

One of the challenges of "poor-er" people...e.g. those on local stops in outer-boroughs is the curse of express trains running past their stops. They are expected to switch again and come back to the stop where they should have stopped anyway. Subway metrics show the trains are operational, but they arent -- it is people adding 20-30+min to a commute because only half the station is operational.

Meanwhile the metrics (and exit counts) will show regular operation. Sharing dashboards like these suggest a working system when it isnt actually working that well.

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#149

Post by spritefs »

I personally wouldn't have a problem living in a city like SF if crime and homeless were less common

But since this is a literal nightmare in SF, being less "car dependent" or appeasing these whining activists is the least of my concern.

I could give a shit less about "car dependency" if I have to worry about my own personal safety on a regular basis. Expecting people to put their own personal safety on the line to reduce "car dependency" is asinine. If city advocates want people to move to their cities, they should get their shit in check first before even bothering to ask

Re: Remote work’s toll on cities

#150

Post by woodruffw »

TuringNYC wrote: post #148
woodruffw wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technique used to calculate APT/ATT (the underlying metrics for timeliness) are documented here (you have to click through a few folds)[1]. They don't appear to be simulated or theoretical: they're based on riders' swipes into the system. They do make certain ridership assumptions, however, because of the limited data (e.g. that customers use the same "corridor" during weekdays, and that the next swipe-in corresp…

One of the challenges of "poor-er" people...e.g. those on local stops in outer-boroughs is the curse of express trains running past their stops. They are expected to switch again and come back to the stop where they should have stopped anyway. Subway metrics show the trains are operational, but they arent -- it is people adding 20-30+min to a commute because only half the station is operational. Meanwhile the metrics…

That's a great point, and I agree: the subway doesn't do a uniformly good job of serving the city's population. There's a reason the wealthy areas are around the lines that they're around.

That being said: that's been true for 100 years. The claim (which I agree with!) that the subway experience is worse when poor doesn't have the temporal aspect that your original claim did (that subway performance has gotten worse recently.)

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