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PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

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Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to think online discussion systems will evolve to approximate real discussion. The online aspect is simply to allow easier information management, synchronization of more people (which would be physically impossible), and decrease of distance. Temporal issues aside, it makes pretty much sense, in that problems in real discussion easily predict problems in online discussion, and fixes to online discussion syste…

I disagree that we don't think in tiers in real life. We do - except they are called roles or titles. For instance, the typical university has undergraduate students, graduate students, professors and administrators. One could simply say that there are four tiers. The reason that we don't think of it this way is most of these institutions have grown up organically over time, or at the very least we aren't aware of th…

Good points. But again, these real life tiers are invented systems and not intuitive. They're just created for efficiency in operation in a particular environment. For universities, some roles work. For companies, others. For internet citizens, I think since there is a whole new level of information transparency (or lack of), we can jump out of the traditional way of thinking about roles.

The examples you give about discussion are all "real discussion." What I'm saying is that I believe the ideal discussion system would accomodate all these discussions. Poetry, sports, academic journals, etc. If not now, eventually it must.

While sometimes it makes sense to nicheify, like separating a fashion-specific website from a tech-specific one, the material isn't always mutually exclusive, and so lots of information is lost. There should be channels for different discussions to connect to each other. Wikipedia is one example of how it can be done.

I guess arbitrarily-tiered system is a bad phrase. I just mean no explicit tiers, like, you have a bit set for mod status, a bit set for troll status, etc. Everybody will interpret authority, or hierarchy, differently, so just leave it as-is, at least with subjectively assessed content, like puns, politically incorrect jokes... Of course objective measurements are useful for winnowing things like necessarily true statements and necessarily informative statements, but not everything.

I think reddit has a pretty good model. So is Slashdot. They're both obvious improvements from BBS style discussions. But there's a lot more to explore, and this more should be where there is more flexibility. One example where this flexibility is lacking is in funny Slashdot comments. Some of the +5 Funny are great stuff, but I can't just, say, have a Slashdot Jokes section and only look at those (and add jokes to the jokes section). So there's seenonslash.com. But that's a reposting of slashdot comments; in effect, lots of information that could've been more effectively harnessed if the Slashdot system itself was more flexible.

Just my thoughts, but in general I don't like institutions and hierarchies and I'm biased against them. Of course it's insane to abolish all demarcations, but why not allow responsibilities to be expanded or dimished in small increments according to performance? It might take x percent of y to impeach someone in real life, but a virtual system would allow you to, say, have a bit less power if the populace thinks you should have less.

It'd be an interesting experiment if anything.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#52
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that we don't think in tiers in real life. We do - except they are called roles or titles. For instance, the typical university has undergraduate students, graduate students, professors and administrators. One could simply say that there are four tiers. The reason that we don't think of it this way is most of these institutions have grown up organically over time, or at the very least we aren't aware of th…

Good points. But again, these real life tiers are invented systems and not intuitive. They're just created for efficiency in operation in a particular environment. For universities, some roles work. For companies, others. For internet citizens, I think since there is a whole new level of information transparency (or lack of), we can jump out of the traditional way of thinking about roles. The examples you give about…

Lot of good thoughts there whacked. I also tend to be biased against institutions and hierarchies, although I have a similar bias against youtube comments and trollishness (which tend to be the same things). I think one of the main reasons that none of these basic problems has been solved is that the general mindset on when approaching them approximates your own. That is "we can jump out of the traditional way of thinking about roles."

I wish that were true, but the traditional way is the traditional way for a reason. It worked, providing necessary efficiency in a specific context. Now, I would argue in an 'ideal discussion system' there would be a variety of different contexts that would be modeled in different ways. This means that you have to have flexibility in the individual implementation, which is part of the reason I was exploring the possibility of lisp list strings in transactional databases below on this thread.

The problem with the arbitrarily-tiered system as I see it is that it relies on tagging. This may work in a smallish community but then you still have a problem when what you or I might consider trolls put youtube-style comments into this discussion on social modeling.

The main way that this has been dealt with is to have evolving communities that focus on very technological subject material. By keeping things at a sufficient level of abstraction, one is able to create a new tech-specific language that must be mastered before one can participate. In other words, one has created a de facto tiered system.

The dark side of this is that the need to force discussion into tech-specific language prevents people from having substantial discussion about fundamentals. And fundamentals (like how people discuss things, or would like to discuss things) are often more important than the latest trends in functional programming.

So I would say that Slashdot and Reddit, though good models, encourage a certain faddishness with respect to the abstract language which they enforce.

As for responsibilities being incremental instead of predefined, I have had similar thoughts. I think the problem (as articulated in political philosophical tomes as well as other places) is that the populace may shift unless it has an investment in something in particular. Usually this investment is in property. With the online world one would need something like core users which are in some way invested in the success or failure of a particular online venue. Once one had core users (property owners) then there are a number of fluid mathematical systems one could employ for the evaluation and promotion both of good content and good users.

I was going to post more philosophical musings related what I see as the Turing Project, but I think Pg deleted my last comment on the topic and this post is quite long already.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#53
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points. But again, these real life tiers are invented systems and not intuitive. They're just created for efficiency in operation in a particular environment. For universities, some roles work. For companies, others. For internet citizens, I think since there is a whole new level of information transparency (or lack of), we can jump out of the traditional way of thinking about roles. The examples you give about…

Lot of good thoughts there whacked. I also tend to be biased against institutions and hierarchies, although I have a similar bias against youtube comments and trollishness (which tend to be the same things). I think one of the main reasons that none of these basic problems has been solved is that the general mindset on when approaching them approximates your own. That is "we can jump out of the traditional way of thi…

I'm interested in these mathematical models used for content filtering, and I made up a little thought experiment as an exercise, but somehow it was too convoluted and I couldn't get an answer. Basically it ended up being something like, how many cookies would you give to a well-behaving kid? Yeah, it's about as general as that, although I had all these different rules for the game. It seems rather futile to predict it beforehand, so I decided that I would just run the system and see what happens. After I fix up the horrible UI...

Digg and reddit do it in the most straightforward manner. Slashdot is good because it actually matches up with some material in conversation theory. The metrics they chose are pretty good. The rating system though, not good enough.

I agree that the tech-specific language acts as a filter itself, but from a different perspective, I realized that Slashdot's modding system's UI and rules are probably a filter too. i.e., if you are willing to learn all the modding rules, and use the modding system, you've passed the "ritual." To the average user, these complications may well be intolerable.

I need to figure out what's tolerable, soon :)

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Database for searching for by the item (news story, game, journal entry), pickle or sexprs for the individual comment threads. The database helps you manage the hopefully large number of news stories you'll get. The tree takes care of individual comments for a single news story. Many filesystems have trouble with large numbers of files in a single directory, as you'd get with eg. pickle tree to a file per item.

Is this what you are actually doing? How do you store the pickle output?

I'm not - I'm using the approach here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33888 . That gives me much more flexibility in picking out individual comments from a thread, returning all comments by a specific user, getting all comments posted today, etc. I'm just recognizing this as another possible way to solve the problem, if you don't care about the extra functionality..

As for storing the pickled output:

  dbh.execute('UPDATE articles SET comments = $comments WHERE news_id = $id', 
              comments=pickle.dumps(article.comments))
The comments field can be a normal TEXT field, since the default format for pickle is ASCII-based.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#55
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am in the process of making a news.yc clone... threaded comments are not as easy as it looks on news.yc. [edit] especially when the comments get reordered on votes.

What's hard about threaded comments, exactly?

how you store them, to how they are fetched, to how they are displayed and arranged according to popularity (i think thats how news.yc works) on every vote.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lot of good thoughts there whacked. I also tend to be biased against institutions and hierarchies, although I have a similar bias against youtube comments and trollishness (which tend to be the same things). I think one of the main reasons that none of these basic problems has been solved is that the general mindset on when approaching them approximates your own. That is "we can jump out of the traditional way of thi…

I'm interested in these mathematical models used for content filtering, and I made up a little thought experiment as an exercise, but somehow it was too convoluted and I couldn't get an answer. Basically it ended up being something like, how many cookies would you give to a well-behaving kid? Yeah, it's about as general as that, although I had all these different rules for the game. It seems rather futile to predict…

Here's one model I'd be interested in testing. Three roles: basic, member, and administrator. Each account has karma (natural numbers), but the exact of karma is invisible to all except the administrator. There is a karma meter which displays karma as a color gradient with different levels assigned different colors.

Content rating is done on a color gradient, from white to blue. Blue is good, white is bad, light blue would be okay. Only members can rate content. Rating would be also be weighted according to the karma of the person doing the rating. In other words, members with more karma would give (or take away) more karma per rating.

Each post would receive a default rating based on the karma of the poster, which would display as a color on the white to blue spectrum already described. The color would change as people rate the content.

Not only comments, but also threads could have ratings on a similar basis. This would allow people to set up certain filters so they would view threads with a certain content rating. Probably a person could automatically become a member when they pass some arbitrary karma threshold.

What do you think about this? Are you already working on something 'tolerable'?

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this what you are actually doing? How do you store the pickle output?

I'm not - I'm using the approach here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33888 . That gives me much more flexibility in picking out individual comments from a thread, returning all comments by a specific user, getting all comments posted today, etc. I'm just recognizing this as another possible way to solve the problem, if you don't care about the extra functionality.. As for storing the pickled output: dbh.execute…

Okay, makes sense. I hadn't read your earlier posting that carefully before, but it sounds better than what I had in mind.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#58
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe richardkulisz was also dinged. His new username is "redditcensoredme". So it does seem to only be the most extreme cases. There are some very popular forum sites that have existed for years and maintained civility. Any Reddit-type site could learn a lot from them. They almost all have a group of core users who act as moderators and enforce a set of published rules. It's critical that they not make up the ru…

I think richardkulisz just misunderstood the reporting algorithm. He was a little less polite than pica, so people resented and reported him rather than downmodding and ignoring.

The reddit founders are letting the users use the report button for censorship instead of spam control -- so that's what it is. That's not good if you ask me.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#59

I have the same problem with reddit and digg: I like to read exceptionally downmodded comments. When comments get modded down so much that they are not displayed, and also they generate a lot of responses, it's the kind of thing I can help but look at. Like a train wreck I suppose. It actually sucks me into the troll MORE when they get such special highlighting. I should say I do like how top level troll posts get pu…

It bugs me that downmodded comments trash karma - political disagreements often get downmodded not because they aren't valid, but because someone disagrees fundamentally. That doesn't seem right.

Re: PG: What's your current take on reddit's comment system?

#60
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned a possible solution here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33902 , but I'm really commenting because there's a really cool connection between PG's approach of storing it as an in-memory tree and my approach of a 2048-bit index: Y'know how in a typical CS datastructures course you'll have to build a heap, and then reimplement with an array? A heap is conceptually a balanced binary tree where every leaf…

You probably don't even need to be using the word "bit" unless you're writing something a lot more performance intensive than a forum.

Optimized ob. quote:

"Premature → evil."

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