Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

stevenbuccini.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 594 posts

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#541

Post by wolverine876 »

> Companies may be looking to reset expectations around compensation and working conditions. Offers are extended, but with extremely unpalatable terms compared to prior jobs. For unsavvy candidates, this won’t become apparent until late in the interview process.

...

> The sooner you accept that you will have to do the interviewing equivalent of eating your vegetables, the less you will immolate yourself and, by extension, the opportunity in front of you by dying on some absurd hill. Suck it up and play the game. Sounds obvious? If so, I will politely refer you back to the title of this post.

Those comments seem dissonant. The second sounds like someone who has blindly bought into the first like it's a truth. It's a political struggle and we can do much better.

The hill isn't at all absurd; people before you fought for it and won it before - that's how you ended up on top of it. They didn't do that by accepting defeat as some inevitability, but by seeing the world and imagining something better. (They did the same with technology - how will you be an entrepenuer if you buy into this reactionary, depressive, defeatest attitude?)

Now it's your turn. The future of our society, in significant respects, depends on it.

It depends on you. Your predecessors built everything good that you have. Now it's your turn - no cavalry is coming; there's nobody else. It's you and me. With a little vision and daring, it's incredible what can be accomplished - just look at the world we live in.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#542

Post by jacquesm »

anon50118810 wrote: post #105
jacquesm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company asks you about stuff that isn't any of their business you have my permission (not that you need it) to lie your ass off if you think it will help you. The power asymmetry is such that unless the counterparty is extremely careful about abusing that power that you will end up being cornered and taken advantage of. If you present yourself as more desirable than you are based on your current situation and it…

I think it's healthier to instead develop the social skills and confidence needed to answer any questions confidently while enforcing boundaries about what you will and won't answer. Outright lying can come from a place of weakness and fear which isn't good to encourage.

Let me give you an example: you're gay and your employer has a thing about gay people. They will not ask you outright 'are you gay?' because that, while legal might result in an anti discrimination suit upon rejection of the candidate which they could very well lose.

Lots of other situations and questions like that which are strictly speaking none of the employer's business. When given the option between telling the truth, evading the question, enforcing your boundaries or lying the only one that might result in you getting the job (assuming you need a job and wouldn't mind working for a bigot because a paycheck is better than no paycheck) I'd be fine with you lying. That is still problematic, but you don't have any moral responsibility towards your employer if they transgress themselves.

The same goes for questions about unionizing, wanting children, having chronic diseases and so on.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#543

Post by jacquesm »

_jdzr wrote: post #494
jasmer wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gosh, no - strongly recommending not doing this. (The lying part) Lying is one of the worst things you can do, it usually speaks to an issue with integrity, a concern that comes before almost all of them even intelligence, education, aptitude, skills. Learn the skill of polite deferral, of saying things without saying them, diverting or embellishing a bit - and then only if it's an issue not relevant to the job. If s…

Mmm objectively (black and white) lying is a stupid but man taking a moral high ground is even stupider. If you're caught into a position where you either need to lie or divert it's likely a bad situation. The right people, the right job, the right opportunities won't put you in a situation where your boundaries will be tested or you need to lie.

It shows to me that some people have never been in the situation where they really needed to eat and/or feed their families. The moral high ground is a fantastic place to be but the wrong hill to die on when it comes to employers prying into your private affairs as a means of possibly discriminating against you.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#544

Post by jacquesm »

kelnos wrote: post #385
jacquesm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company asks you about stuff that isn't any of their business you have my permission (not that you need it) to lie your ass off if you think it will help you. The power asymmetry is such that unless the counterparty is extremely careful about abusing that power that you will end up being cornered and taken advantage of. If you present yourself as more desirable than you are based on your current situation and it…

Lying is always risky, though. If the truth comes to light, you are screwed. Even if it doesn't, you have to remember and internalize your lie, and make sure anything you say in the future is consistent with it. That requires extra work and can be stressful. (And if you mess it up: again, you are screwed.) I don't buy the "you don't want to work for a company that would ask you XYZ anyway" line. Sure, in some cases t…

"Are you married?"

"What is the name of your spouse?"

"Have you ever been a member of a union?"

"Do you have children?"

"Do you want to have children?"

"Do you have a chronic illness?"

"Have you ever been arrested?"

"Which bathroom would you like to use?"

"How large is your household?"

"Are you the sole breadwinner?"

"What are your hobbies?"

"Do you have pets?"

"What is your current salary?"

And on and on...

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#545

Post by xupybd »

ferrumfist wrote: post #445
mtc010170 wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Never give anyone a reason to dislike you I'm someone who tends to get along and work well with others. That part definitely has its advantages for employability (and life in general), and is recommended. However, taking it to this extreme is just dangerous advice. Constantly being a people pleaser can carry enormous risks, especially (but not limited to) to yourself. It's important to learn to be ok with people…

People pleasers can cause people to dislike them in a workplace, ironically. Being a people pleaser in software dev very often means you will over-burden yourself because you'd rather say "yes, I can do that for you" than "no, I don't have the bandwidth for that". I'd rather a teammate who is honest about their current limitations than someone who tells me what I want to hear. If someone admits they are stretched thi…

Totally, that has been me in the past. You also burn yourself out and start underperforming.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#546

Post by parineum »

greedo wrote: post #504
parineum wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence. I think that's all true except for the "more than competence" part and it's a good thing. Competence is directly related to loyalty. When you recommend someone for a job and they excel, it makes you look good. It makes you loyal to them and giving the opportunity makes them more loyal to you. If so…

Loyalty, like love, can be blind. One of the best SREs I work with, is just a stellar performer. Over delivers, solves complex problems quickly and with well thought out and reliable solutions. We needed another SRE, so we hired his best friend. Terrible employee, both in what they deliver and how they act. Night and day difference from the first SRE.

And I bet you didn't ask that guy next time you needed to hire someone.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#547

Post by mindentropy »

optymizer wrote: post #302
harshalizee wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resu…

If you're not passionate about coding, that advice isn't for you. There is a class of people for whom coding is 'work', as in the actual act of coding is work and they would prefer to be doing anything else, but they have bills to pay. There is another class of developers who like to code so much, that 'work' is merely a project that they don't have directional control over, but the act of coding is a relaxing activi…

>There is a class of people for whom coding is 'work', as in the actual act of coding is work and they would prefer to be doing anything else, but they have bills to pay.

I always see this set of people highly vocal and against people who actually like to code. It is like they have a tough time accepting that a lot of technical people love to build things.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#548

Post by throwaway2037 »

avianlyric wrote: post #507
greedo wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loyalty, like love, can be blind. One of the best SREs I work with, is just a stellar performer. Over delivers, solves complex problems quickly and with well thought out and reliable solutions. We needed another SRE, so we hired his best friend. Terrible employee, both in what they deliver and how they act. Night and day difference from the first SRE.

> We needed another SRE, so we hired his best friend. Well there was your mistake. You should have hired the best SRE he knows, not his best friend. I’m good friends with many software engineers, but the strength of our friendship has no correlation with their engineering capabilities.

I agree. Hiring friends and family is dangerous in my view, unless you are running your own small company.

Alan C. Greenberg, former CEO of investment bank Bear, Stearns & Co. said (to paraphrase): "The problem with hiring friends and family: You hire 100% of the dummies." Bear had an incredibly strict policy about not hiring friends and family. As a result, I am always suspicious when people recommend to hire friends and family.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#549

Post by throwaway2037 »

whoIsYou wrote: post #424
parineum wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence. I think that's all true except for the "more than competence" part and it's a good thing. Competence is directly related to loyalty. When you recommend someone for a job and they excel, it makes you look good. It makes you loyal to them and giving the opportunity makes them more loyal to you. If so…

Seconding this. I'm wondering if the person you are replying to might be having a bit of a dunning kruger issue I only recommend the people that I have worked with that I would want to work with again. Not because of loyalty, but because they are good, and will make me look good for recommending them

To clarify for other users, "dunning kruger issue" means:

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. Some researchers also include in their definition the opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate their skills.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#550

Post by throwaway2037 »

steveBK123 wrote: post #490
w10-1 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We brought along the people we thought were the best, who we got along with, who would get the job done" I really appreciate the sentiment. In my experience such networks have been self-serving and mostly exclusionary, rewarding loyalty more than competence. "You need to make some changes" is not particularly helpful when you're outside the fold. What's typically unstated is something about loyalty, esp. not disclos…

Your first comment re: exclusionary is simply a filter for the flip side of your 2nd point. The damage of a bad hire is 10x as bad as the positive impact of a good hire. A network of competent, easy to get along with people allows one to avoid the truly bad hires that we've all experienced. Sure you may view it as exclusionary, but if you're hiring for seniors, and been in your niche a decade or more.. the likelihood…

Joel Spolsky has written extensively about avoiding bad hires. Average and above is the ultimate goal. I agree the impact of a bad hire far outweighs good hires because they consumer the time of managers. Good hires only need a quick steer now and again. Bad hires need a manager to spoon feed them until layoff season arrives.
Post reply on HN