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Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

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Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#281

Post by sangnoir »

harshalizee wrote: post #171
blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resu…

> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard

Hah, and you called gp's advice toxic! Taking stock if your financial well-being after being laid off is too late. I fear your advice (take time off) may be toxic - depending on circumstances. My advice is this: as a general rule, avoid interviewing while desperate. Getting an offer generally takes longer than one might think, so interview early and often, before you get near the end of your mental/financial runway.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#282

Post by lazide »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #173
ericmcer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is a good writer and clearly a thoughtful individual, which further reinforces truth #6 (honesty can hurt you). I subconsciously approached the article with a bit of negative bias around the fact he had been laid off. His writing has more clarity than many successful CEOs though so who knows.

As someone who also writes and thinks a lot, truth #6 applies particularly to us. People REALLY don't want to hear hard truths from people who think about what they are saying. If you are saying something that is less thought out, honesty can be a good policy - after all, they have probably heard whatever you are saying before.

I will say - most people don’t like hearing that. And you’ll certainly not be a hit at parties if that’s your style.

There is a high correlation between specific types of high performer and people who do like (and benefit) from hearing that type of truth though. At least unless it hits too close to home.

Which is why the article is getting upvoted.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#283

Post by dghughes »

trashface wrote: post #270

Plan for early retirement even if you don't want it. You may want to work forever, but the jobs may not want you. Already an issue for older ICs and I expect it will just get worse.

I think when I hit 50 my fire went out. I'm not 1/10th of what most HNers are I trod my way through jobs IT or not. As long as money comes in and I can bear the job. I like technology but it can drain you and at some point burn-out is a possibility if you can't recover like you could decades earlier.

Certainly save money now and always especially if young like 20s. Stuff money away learn how to invest. Even if you're older save like your life depends on it right now. Even for emergency funds I'd suggest a year's worth not as cash but something just as easy to liquidate that won't lose much value.

Yes I'd say plan to retire as soon as you possibly can. Or switch gears to part-time work since younger workers will become increasingly annoying to you. You may like them but generational culture clash is natural.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#284

Post by yoyonamite »

harshalizee wrote: post #171
blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resu…

> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard.

This is just as, if not more toxic than the advice that you're opposed to. I've had similar experiences with interviewers for non-technical questions, and it comes off as aggressive, antagonistic and traumatizing; especially in your example where they left it off their resume as a gap. The interviewee's perspective might have been to say that they've been spending some of their spare time keeping their skills sharp and now you're hammering them to see if a project left off their resume qualifies for some "high bar," while all they see is a negative and dismissive attitude.

Personally, I would much rather be programming my own projects or doing leetcode than play video games, but I wouldn't judge someone negatively if they told me they played games on their own time.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#285

Post by thunky »

Ialdaboth wrote: post #275
harshalizee wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resu…

Terrible advice. One year of lazing around and playing videogames is a good way to lose any self-discipline you would been building up to this point. There is nothing toxic in working to improve yourself and/or building projects you are passionate about - quite the contrary. The feeling of accomplishment can do wonders to one's mental health.

> One year of lazing around and playing videogames is a good way to lose any self-discipline you would been building up to this point

Do you really want people to devote their life to their jobs, even while unemployed?

I don't see a thing wrong with spending your down time doing whatever makes you happy.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#286

Post by lkrubner »

About this:

"If you had asked me right after I got laid off how long it would take me to get back to work, I would have said three months – including two months of vacation. It took me a year."

That is fascinating. I'm glad they shared this experience. It is very different than my own experience. I'm trying to imagine what that would be like, to go a year looking for a job.

Here in New York City, at the end of 2022, I am still seeing very strong hiring of software developers. I was recently hiring at FutureStay.com. And I recently had a friend lose their job and they found another job after 6 weeks, of which 3 weeks was pure vacation.

The one group that I see struggle is new developers who have just graduated from dev bootcamps. Some of these developers struggle 6 to 12 months to find a software development jobs.

But of experienced software developers? Going a year without finding employment? I heard of such stories during the recession of 2001, though I never saw it among my personal circle. And this was very much true in the aftermath of the crisis of 2008 -- it wasn't till about 2011 or 2012 that things got back to normal. But even then, when I went looking for a job in 2010, it only took me 4 weeks to find a job.

A year without a job?

I will say the industry has gotten slower about hiring, with more and more rounds of interviews. In the extreme case, some companies now have 9 or 10 rounds of interviews, which is far past the point where the Law Of Diminish Returns sets in. By contrast, when I was hired at WineSpectator.com in 2010 the CTO interviewed me for 2 hours and then hired me on the spot, I didn't have to talk to anyone else. Likewise when Mark Herschberg, the CTO of ShermansTravel.com, hired me in 2011.

I feel like the industry is driving away possible talent by adding in so many layers of testing and recruitment.

There is absolutely no good reason why an experienced software developer should go a year without a job. That such a thing can happen suggests something is broken with our current hiring processes.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#287

Post by brailsafe »

harshalizee wrote: post #171
blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resu…

As someone who's been in that position at least twice (been fired or laid off and haven't been able to find _anything_ for over a year), I wouldn't go so far as to say it's wholly terrible or toxic, but at least partially so, or a little naive in some way. I'd say you should take at least a few months of personal time if you can afford it, and it's worth having something to chip away on eventually, but not necessarily to have something on your resume. Doing this full-time is borderline stupid advice, it will very likely not be worth trading your otherwise personal time for, unless you're literally charging for consulting services or something. Even still, if you're aiming for employment, just take your time.

Looking back on the times I've had to deal with this, and looking forward to the times I almost certainly will again, I'd do nothing different than what you've recommended or that I've done, with the exception of haplessly paying rent hoping for that next absurdly long and thoughtlessly designed interview process to work out.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#288

Post by tayo42 »

blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

> A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume.

I'm 4 months into a break from work and the only thing that is depressing is the idea of going back to work.

I think if this quote resonates with you, you probably need a break from work and analyze your life.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#289

Post by [deleted] »

fein wrote: post #139
eulers_secret wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what happened to me when I quit. “Now I’ll have time for my projects!!” Instead it’s been “Grokking Algorithms”, “The Competitive Programmers Handbook”, Alex Xu’s “System Design”, and enough leetcode that I’m actually doing more than I did at work. What sucks is that there are still lots of medium problems I cannot do. Hards are right out. Dunno what I’ll do.

What situation are people in that they have to result to this? Is this an issue with getting laid off and trying to find a FAANG job? I was laid off from one consulting company back in 2018 or so and had a new gig with more pay a week or so later. No leetcode or dev tests, just talking with people in phone interviews. It was a company I had previously done contract work for, and they called me, but nothing at the FAA…

[deleted]

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#290

Post by sixstringtheory »

tayistay wrote: post #255

> You’re going to have to grind Leetcode. Yes, even the dynamic programming problems. Really? I would think contributing (significantly) to an open-source project would look better than spending time on leetcode, though I've never tried leetcode.

In my experience interviewing, nothing on github or your resume will be read. The only thing that will be read is what you type into coderpad during your interview.
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