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Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

stevenbuccini.com

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Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#91

Post by weakfortress »

tester756 wrote: post #23

>You’re going to have to grind Leetcode. Yes, even the dynamic programming problems. Why there isn't this much problem with having to learn yet another JS framework, get familiarity with database of the month, learn some tool like docker/k8s/ansible/vagrant/blabla or yet another proprietary toolchain like AWS/Azure/GCP but foundational cs/programming knowledge is top hated thing, that people even call it "discriminat…

Because after a successful, productive, 5-10 years at a company you tend to forget the algorithms you don't use. I can remember enough about the knapsack problem to talk intelligently about it. I can't remember how to do the dynamic programming. In 90% of cases given infinite time I can eventually arrive at the solution to most med-hard questions. However, you don't have infinite time. I find problems like optimizing how much water goes into buckets to the point I can solve it in 4 minutes with variations so far below me it doesn't even register on my radar. For the record, I have over a decade in this industry. Having to do these problems makes me feel like that hard earned decade may as well had not happened.

For those of us with lives, hobbies, etc grinding leetcode is exhausting. Moreover, you can't just grind it. You have to grind it to the point you literally can brain dump answers in an interview.

Interviewers rarely care about your accomplishments. No one cares you did staff eng. at XYZ, managed engineers, have familiarity with all sorts of frameworks, etc. This is the only industry where every time you look for a job you're treated like don't have a resume. I think many (if not most) people are insulted by this because the people in charge are belittling them. I would bet even Knuth would struggle to tackle a modern programming interview. That's a problem.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#92

Post by scarface74 »

blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

This is a statistically horrible idea. The chance that your startup is going to replace even the compensation of entry level grad in any large city in the US doing enterprise development is almost 0.

The “story” that has worked for me is that “no I’m not going to reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls riding a unicycle on a tightrope. What we can do is talk like adults and we can discuss your real world business problems and see if I can bring my skills and experience to the table to help you solve those problems in exchange for money”

I’m not going to spend 40 hours a week working and more time on the side working on a side project.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#93

Post by addaon »

mgkimsal wrote: post #29
addaon wrote: post #5

> You will have to interview for jobs where you will use a language you despise. Maybe even Java. Definitely Javascript. No. Or rather, maybe? I have been fortunate enough that in a couple decades in this industry, including two major downturns, I've never been in a position that I /must/ find a job on a particular timeline to pay the bills. While my life situation helps with this, I do recognize that luck is a major…

I think you're in a more fortunate position than many. > Better to take a personal bridge loan You often won't be able to get a loan without verifiable steady income. > Maybe I can put up with it for six months, but what's the point? To bring in income. Pay for living expenses. Pay off debts. Provide for family. Start/increase/replenish savings. > hold out for that, don't settle for doing what you "despise" instead.…

This is totally fair, and I was trying to acknowledge my understanding of these points. But I do have to take a bit more of an aggressive stance on some of this -- by simple virtue of being software engineers successful enough to be laid off in bulk, rather than dismissed for cause years ago, we are in an elite group. Over the previous years, we've had great opportunities, including the opportunity to save enough money to ride through hard times. The amount one needs to save, and the amount of hard times one can ride through, absolutely varies with life situation; and a black swan event like medical bills can destroy any amount of savings. But I do feel like the vast majority of folks looking to get a second, third, or fourth job as a software engineer (as opposed to that first job) should be able to hold out for something that is at least not "despised." And I do hope that those reading this who are mentally responding "nope, I'd have no options" might consider the value of having those options, and perhaps adjust spending vs savings rates while they have an opportunity to do so.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#94

Post by Volundr »

gabereiser wrote: post #70
benjaminwootton wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn’t an option until a few years ago, and it being an option coincided with the crescendo of a 14 year bull market. Having a few beers before your afternoon shift isn’t likely to viable for long.

Exactly. They wonder why there are layoffs and they are one of them. Or like in the article, they think they’ll land another gig in 3 months or less.

Heh TBH in most cases I doubt an individual has much if any control over a) if there are layoffs, and b) if they are part of one. I've had the "privilege" of seeing the internals of a few large layoffs, and being caught in one, and from my experience they are usually tied to business decisions outside of the control of your average IC (currently interests rates are putting a major pinch on companies that hold a lot of debt for example) and performance is rarely an actual factor in who goes. In most the large layoffs I've seen the list of who is going is handed down from C or VP level execs with none of management below having any say (which explains why so many take out key resources). Only in one case have I actually seen managers select who to keep.

The whole "layoffs happen because employees are lazy, and affect lazy employees" is a nice narrative of your a business owner to keep the rank and file "motivated", but it's rarely an accurate portrayal of the situation.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#95

Post by greesil »

blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

Nope, I need that time to grind leetcode.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#97

Post by anon50118810 »

ejb999 wrote: post #67
jt2190 wrote: post #25

> Come up with a more, uh, positive reason for why you’re interviewing instead of disclosing that you were laid off. I don’t understand this assertion, unless “laid off” now means “fired with cause”. People are laid off all the time, for no reason other than the company wants to reduce their labor costs. Perhaps the author is assuming that the company is also making a judgement about their skills, e.g. that they’re s…

yes and no - unless companies laid off everybody, or an entire division/location for example, they already made some sort of decision on who would stay and who would go - if you find yourself in the 'let go' category, than someone likely made a judgement about you already and found you less desirable than the 'keep' category - thats just the unfortunate reality.

"Laid off" should be one of the safest reasons to give for leaving an employer, right up there with giving birth to a child or taking care of a sick loved one. Layoffs from big companies are in the news now and there's rumors about how employees were chosen, but by and large saying you were laid off from some random company shouldn't mean anything other than that employer restructured and you had bad luck. Certainly you as a job applicant are under no obligation to speculate during an interview about why you specifically were let go.

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#99

Post by itake »

greesil wrote: post #95
blagie wrote: post #74

My advice: Have one or more side projects going all the time. If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. A year of unemployment? Lonely, depressing, and not good on a resume. A year of launching an unsuccessful venture? Running coding classes for the underserved? Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? That's a lot better, both at the time and in ret…

Nope, I need that time to grind leetcode.

leetcode IS the side project 8)

Re: Hard truths I learned when I got laid off from my SWE job

#100

Post by paulryanrogers »

tester756 wrote: post #23

>You’re going to have to grind Leetcode. Yes, even the dynamic programming problems. Why there isn't this much problem with having to learn yet another JS framework, get familiarity with database of the month, learn some tool like docker/k8s/ansible/vagrant/blabla or yet another proprietary toolchain like AWS/Azure/GCP but foundational cs/programming knowledge is top hated thing, that people even call it "discriminat…

My feeling is that the fundamentals are difficult in their own way: requiring math, logic, creativity, seemingly arbitrary constraints. Learning the flavor of the month on stack X is often just learning their jargon, keywords, and matching common patterns one probably already knows.

All that said, sentiment against stack churn is significant and a common theme here on HN.

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