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Why 13th Chords

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Re: Why 13th Chords

#81
post #57
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there really isn't a better way. All the rules behind music theory are based on what sounds good, not the other way around. What you can do, however, is push yourself to try out new harmonic structures. You can make your chords more complex, you can delay resolution much longer, you can shift keys. There are also other musical idioms like polytonality, alternate scales, etc. that you can use to expand you horizon…

Definitely this. It may be counter-productive to over-analyse these things too, at least beyond a point. I ran myself into a bit of a dead end with jazz piano trying to be ever more inventive when it comes to harmony. I probably thought about it too much. The result was that I ended up pursuing it to its conclusion as far as my abilities went and then feeling like I had nothing left to do but flog a dead horse with t…

> Any tips from musician hacker types here on how to get past this kind of 'improvisor's block' ?

I've been a pro musician before being a programmer and here's my advice: look someone else's playing, that's it. Of course you can do it the hard way and painfully learn to play chorus from recordings, but it's really tough. However, you can learn a lot simply by observing someone playing on your instrument.

The latest trick I learnt this way is incredibly simple, really the kind of slap-my-forefront discovery: to play be bop tunes (Ornithology, Billie's bounce, Night in Tunisia) on solo piano, a good way to play both the bass and chords is to ditch the classic be-bop triads described in this article (7th-3rd-11th, 3rd-7th-9th and the likes) and simply play 1st-7th-10th (yes, a good ol' 7th chord) with the left hand, which provides both enough bass and enough harmony, while keeping the right hand free :)

Re: Why 13th Chords

#82
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid you miss my point. I'm not sure who the article was for, people who already know its contents perhaps? Anyone else would have to have a solid background in theory to understand much of anything in it. "I find not only the 13th chord a great substitute for a 7th now, especially when it's the dominant resolving to the tonic, but I also love the 7th+3rd+13th/6th way of voicing it too."

"""I'm not sure who the article was for, people who already know its contents perhaps?""" No, just anyone who already knows a bit of music theory. Not even a great deal of it. Something that can be learned in a week, tops. Tons of articles on HN have titles like: Djikstra's algorithm, advanced types in Haskell, currying and memoization in Scala, A Graphical Notation for the Lambda Calculus, and similar content. Is so…

Any idea how elitist this sounds? It's not at all "just like" an article about Dijkstra, Ruby on Rails or mathematics or whatever.

Usually such articles are praised on how well-written they are, even allowing for people not familiar with the background getting the gist, somewhat.

> Or do people seeing stuff like "^[ab](foo)^[k])/i complain that:

> "that pretty much explains why people have a hard time "getting" computer science theory. Gibberish.Goobeltygook$"?

> There a logic behind regular expressions, and there's a logic behind chord/interval notation. And the second is a lot easier, too, and it's used because it's succint and it works.

That's a very good example, because IMO it demonstrates my point. If anyone would have written an article like that about regular expressions, written in the same way, with:

Regexes peppered inline throughout each sentence, repeatedly mentioning how this is probably the most basic stuff ever--up to the point of actually apologizing for stooping down to the level of what must probably be "regex theory 101". Then someone would have remarked "that pretty much explains why people have a hard time 'getting' regular expressions. Gibberish. Goobeltygook", then nobody would have disagreed with them. Because everybody knows that a badly written article about regexes very quickly becomes to look like unreadable gibberish.

And in case you didn't catch that, this article actually apologizes for "probably being jazz theory 101". What? Have you ever seen a comp.sci/math article being apologetic about saying

"I know this is probably graph theory 101, but we define a graph as an ordered pair G = (V, E) comprising a set V of vertices or nodes together with a set E of edges or lines ..."

Of course not! It is considered good style to repeat the basics, and in fact IMO, I consider it bad style to be apologetic about it (because it's condescending to that part of your audience that made good use of the quick refresher).

Everybody knows that regexes can quickly look like unreadable gooblygook, even if you're familiar with them, and any article that wants to discuss something fundamental about regexes, is going to have to take some special care to not make it look as such. In some sense, same goes for set theory or mathematical formulae in general.

That still doesn't mean the hypothetical regex article would be so much clearer to the layman, but it would seem much more approachable, in some sense.

I thought I knew some very rudimentary things about music theory, but apparently not enough to make the leap to "get" and string together what this guy is talking about in pure jargon (and believe me I spent more than the "10 minutes" everybody says it would take). To me, that tells me the article is simply badly written. A similar exposition about monads in functional programming, is more like what I'd expect in a 1-on-1 comment thread (when it's perfectly ok to use as much jargon to succinctly get your point across) than a blog article intended for the general public (when regardless how obvious or simple, it always pays to step down and explain from basics, even if only to reinforce the audience that already knows them you're talking about the same things).

In fact, the only other computer science topic I've seen this sort of attitude, is the security/exploit/disclosure/hacking scene. That's where people routinely bash on eachother for repeating the basics and that "this is nothing new" because hacker X already did sploit Y in 2005 which was kinda similar (regardless that writing/warning about it again is a good thing).

Re: Why 13th Chords

#83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was puzzling over the same question. Some of these words are semantically overloaded, and as far as I can tell there's no single interpretation that makes it all "work out" the way you would require if this were math. There are two meanings to "adding 7": 1. adding 7 arithmetically to obtain the same note an octave higher; 2. adding in a 7th note to whatever chord you are playing. But the way the chords are named i…

Been out of Berklee a few years, but a few nuggets that might shed light: In Jazz theory, the 7th scale degree is part of the chord. C7 isn't C (C+E+G) plus a B♭; C7 is its own flavor of C chord, C + E + G + B♭. More generally, the ^3 and the ^7 are the two most important notes in the chord. The ^3 tells you its quality (minor, major) and the ^7 tells you its, uh, seventhness (dominant, diminished, maj7). It's common…

> Then there's C7(#11), which you'll often find when C is the IV chord, 'cause the IV chord gets a Lydian scale.. but now I forget how that explains anything.

I'd say it's usually the other way around: if you want to improvise in a Lydian mode, use a 7th(#11) chord on your IV, while improvising; if you're composing, use this chord to hint the interpret to use this scale. And so on.

Re: Why 13th Chords

#84

Grew up playing classical and pop music, basically 3-4 chords (maj, min, 7th, etc). Went to the best jazz school in the world (U of North Texas) and woke up to jazz...an order of magnitude more harmonically complex than classical. Will spend the rest of my life learning to play jazz. Why is this on HN? Because there is a giant overlap between hackers and musicians. For those of you interested, but confused, go to a m…

I went to UNT as well (not for music) and I'm still in Denton and work remote from here, not because it's a great tech hub but because of the music scene and culture I want to raise my kids in.

A good number of the best coders I work with right now are fantastic musicians, including Chad Fowler who is a phenomenal sax player, and another senior dev on my team who is a superb UNT-trained jass pianist. We talk about this all the time -- so many good coders are also musicians.

Great story about Knuth, I was never aware of that quote!

Re: Why 13th Chords

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"""I'm not sure who the article was for, people who already know its contents perhaps?""" No, just anyone who already knows a bit of music theory. Not even a great deal of it. Something that can be learned in a week, tops. Tons of articles on HN have titles like: Djikstra's algorithm, advanced types in Haskell, currying and memoization in Scala, A Graphical Notation for the Lambda Calculus, and similar content. Is so…

Any idea how elitist this sounds? It's not at all "just like" an article about Dijkstra, Ruby on Rails or mathematics or whatever. Usually such articles are praised on how well-written they are, even allowing for people not familiar with the background getting the gist, somewhat. > Or do people seeing stuff like "^[ab](foo)^[k])/i complain that: > "that pretty much explains why people have a hard time "getting" compu…

You use the term "article" as if it was supposed to be a well-written piece intended for a particular audience. It wasn't. It's a personal blog post recording a light bulb going off for me on one particular aspect of chord naming.

Re: Why 13th Chords

#86

Grew up playing classical and pop music, basically 3-4 chords (maj, min, 7th, etc). Went to the best jazz school in the world (U of North Texas) and woke up to jazz...an order of magnitude more harmonically complex than classical. Will spend the rest of my life learning to play jazz. Why is this on HN? Because there is a giant overlap between hackers and musicians. For those of you interested, but confused, go to a m…

"""an order of magnitude more harmonically complex than classical. """ Depends on the classical. There's classical stuff that's harmonically miles beyond jazz music. Contemporary classical, that is.

I'd love to listen to something like this, but don't know even where to start looking. Could you provide some pointers?

Re: Why 13th Chords

#87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea how elitist this sounds? It's not at all "just like" an article about Dijkstra, Ruby on Rails or mathematics or whatever. Usually such articles are praised on how well-written they are, even allowing for people not familiar with the background getting the gist, somewhat. > Or do people seeing stuff like "^[ab](foo)^[k])/i complain that: > "that pretty much explains why people have a hard time "getting" compu…

You use the term "article" as if it was supposed to be a well-written piece intended for a particular audience. It wasn't. It's a personal blog post recording a light bulb going off for me on one particular aspect of chord naming.

You're right. I shouldn't have attacked your blog article like that, and I apologize.

I maintain, however, that people without sufficient background in music theory have a right to complain (on HN, not on your blog) it's quite incomprehensible. And that it could have been written to better accommodate for that. Not that you have any obligation to, as you said it's a personal blog post where you can write whatever you want, however you want :)

Though personally, if you would put in a few links to some simple introductory articles--maybe the other commenters were right and it just takes 10 mins of reading the right definitions of notation, maybe I just read the wrong things before or forgot the important parts--that would have definitely triggered me to explore some more of the subject matter, and you can't disagree that would have been a good thing ;-)

Re: Why 13th Chords

#88
A few people in this thread mentioned that the notation used in this article is in fact quite simple and could be learned in 10 minutes or so.

Personally I find the article quite incomprehensible, and I thought I knew a littlebit about music theory :) Just a tiny bit, however, and I don't even play an instrument--I always found it very hard to even just make a passable tune on a tracker/software synthesizer. Even though I love music and spent a lot of times creating mixes and mash-ups in software such as Ableton Live and Traktor (which were pretty good according to those who heard them both on and off the dance floor), as well as coding software synthesizers, instruments and sound effects (which were also pretty good according to my rankings in 4k demo-competitions over 10 years ago).

I wonder, can anybody perhaps provide a couple of links to some good introductory articles that would tell me about how to interpret the things discussed in this article? (I'm willing to spend more than just 10 minutes on them, btw ;-) )

Re: Why 13th Chords

#89
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You use the term "article" as if it was supposed to be a well-written piece intended for a particular audience. It wasn't. It's a personal blog post recording a light bulb going off for me on one particular aspect of chord naming.

You're right. I shouldn't have attacked your blog article like that, and I apologize. I maintain, however, that people without sufficient background in music theory have a right to complain (on HN, not on your blog) it's quite incomprehensible. And that it could have been written to better accommodate for that. Not that you have any obligation to, as you said it's a personal blog post where you can write whatever you…

Strongly disagree, there is a vast array of articles covering a vast array of subjects on HN. Part of the joy of browsing it is finding articles on subjects I know little about and then doing some work to get my deficient knowledge up to scratch to gain the most from them. You sound like a university professor that insists you start from the basics in every essay so that anyone can read your work. If you want to read 1 music theory article with no reference to anything else then you need to start at music theory 101. BTW if you do want to understand what is going on here read something about building chords with thirds (and get to the point where you get that a third on a third is a 5th if everything is diatonic) - for the record i h ave had no formal training in music theory and have learnt everything from the internets from articles far worse and self contradictory than this. Now im going to go back to reading things about haskell and startups - things i know very little about btw and have to work to understand. Why would you want to read about things you already understand?
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