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How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

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Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#901
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if nothing else, allowing such posts to propagate and be reinforced has the side effect of legitimizing them. Tagging posts as misleading is certainly one strategy, but people also complain about that being censorship or a conspiracy against them as well. Also if the argument is we should be moderating less, not more, then you're just arguing to turn mainstream social media platforms into those less well-monitor…

I wouldn't have an issue with some sort of shadow-blocking/ hiding of posts containing clearly dangerous misinformation. I'm not at all against moderation per se, but I don't think there's a simple one-size-fits-all approach that guarantees the best result for everyone. But I do have an overriding concern that ideas, no matter how crackpot, are best debated in the open rather than left to simmer in dark places.

If we want governmental mandates to regulate social media, let's do it. Make it law that crackpot ideas MUST be shared, and limit exactly how platforms can moderate their platform. The problem with this approach is that in the quest for freedom of speech, we'll have stripped freedom from owners of the platform to moderate their platform how they see fit.

The reality is that truly unfettered free speech & unmoderated discussions/debates devolves into all sorts of distractions from the primary goals of the platform (e.g. spam, hate speech, illegal activity, off-topic discussion). There must always be some level of moderation and censorship, even if that is at a basic level watching for spam bots & illegal activity. Typically that's not enough to ensure decorum, so you end up with additional community guidelines to set the tone for the platform.

My point here is that freedom of speech on online platforms is a mythical unicorn, that never existed, nor will it ever exist. It seems more like a wedge issue certain people like to bring up because they're unhappy with how a platform has acted towards them, and want to claim superiority by championing "free speech", even if they don't actually believe in it. For all the belly aching Musk did about Twitter, he is doing exactly the same things he complained about. That'd be fine, if he wasn't such a hypocrite about it & understood the ramifications and expectations of free speech, and the complexities of competent content moderation.

I'd also disagree that crackpot ideas are best debated in the open on social media. I think in a well moderated forum where people are held accountable, and expected to cite their sources yes. In the firehose that is social media where attention spans are limited, consumption is often on mobile devices which may hamper ability to do in-depth research, it leaves much to be desired as a place to find deeper truth easily. Also with puppet accounts, the moment you debunk one thread, ten more have popped up regurgitating the same talking points.

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#902

How can anybody be surprised that so many people belive in so called "conspiracy theories" when many of them looks like true. The rising tribalism in times of digital information is truly interesting phenomenon. When most people realise how easily we are manipulated just by words and images in media, trust in any information will not exist. We are really go to post-truth times.

> How can anybody be surprised that so many people belive in so called "conspiracy theories" when many of them looks like true. The Darwinian nature of conspiracy theories mean that if they didn't look like the truth, they'd not really establish much of an audience.

In other words, this as how human societies naturally build consensus.

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#903
post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He’s a common one How did he get into the "usual suspects" box? > it’s worth remembering that despite lying about the severity of the disease He wasn't just wrong or mistaken (if he was) or providing a different view, he was lying . That must be how he got into that box. I presume you have some sort of evidence, given such a bold claim? > pushing myths about herd immunity Would you care to give an example of that t…

What moves him into probable deception for me is that he wasn’t just repeatedly wrong about everything of substance but that his errors were always aligned with something which made him money. Botching the methodology on the paper you’re using to argue for removing safeguards is bad but it’s worse not to mention that you were funded by one of the industries affected. > I wonder if you would consider a hellban to be d…

> Botching the methodology on the paper you’re using to argue for removing safeguards is bad but it’s worse not to mention that you were funded by one of the industries affected.

You're being too coy. Which industry and which paper? I'm not sure what's preventing you from being more specific, especially since you were lamenting vague examples earlier.

> unless you’re defining that term as meaning that you don’t get free promotion.

So if you can seemingly access a service but not be provided that service then you haven't been deplatformed? That sounds a lot like being given a telephone and a dial tone but you can only call out to prearranged numbers and meanwhile no one can call in nor find out your number and yet the phone company claims they're not denying you service. In other words, preposterous.

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#904
post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can anybody be surprised that so many people belive in so called "conspiracy theories" when many of them looks like true. The Darwinian nature of conspiracy theories mean that if they didn't look like the truth, they'd not really establish much of an audience.

In other words, this as how human societies naturally build consensus.

No, consensus building is the reverse. It's people playing the game vs. the game playing people: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/qanon-game-plays-beli...

Consensus building is looking for ways to persuade people who aren't predisposed to an idea to come around to it (and because it's bidirectional, simultaneously being open to ideas one isn't predisposed to). Conspiracy theories are looking for ways to become something that fits people's predispositions.

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#905

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan did not experience a major wave before the borders were reopened. The peaks were lower than in Europe and the US, and contact tracing never failed as badly. Japan's testing rate was described as "ultra-low … 0.2% of the population"[1][2], no one can claim to be able to compare the infection waves with any certainty, and there certainly were major waves[3]: > Japan is reporting nearly 200,000 Covid-19 cases a…

Testing rate is a meaningless statistic, because the criteria for testing vary between countries and over time. Especially after some places started testing everyone routinely every week, which made the number of tests artificially high and the positivity rate artificially low. Comparing statistics between countries is difficult, because data definitions vary, old definitions may no longer be appropriate, and there a…

> Testing rate is a meaningless statistic, because the criteria for testing vary between countries and over time.

Testing is useful for two reasons - helping people who may have the disease (obviously), and for seroprevalence. Since Japan's testing was so low those seroprevalence statistics are lacking. As we know now, severity of the disease is linked to the overall health of the individual. It's quite possible those waves you call nontrivial were just as large but that the health of the population meant the severity of symptoms (which is what actually makes a wave trivial or not, along with availability of health services) was lower and continued to be lower.

I've been in Japan for the whole of the pandemic and to claim that people were isolated - either from each other or the outside world in any way that is meaningful for disease or contact tracing was of a high level is to contradict reality.

Finally, the article I shared by Bhattacharya and Packalen goes over contact tracing and points out why it is futile in the case of COVID-19, but Martin Kulldorff, Bhattacharya's infamous co-signatory on the Great Barrington Declaration sums it up in two tweets[1][2]:

> Contact tracing, testing and isolation is important against many infectious disease outbreaks, such as Ebola and post-vaccine measles. It is ineffective, naïve and counter-productive against COVID19, influenza, pre-vaccine measles, etc, and by definition, against any pandemic.

> Problems when one or more of: (1) disease is widely spread, (2) there are many mild or asymptomatic cases, (3) there is pre-symptomatic transmission, (4) we cannot identify the first index case in a given population, or how that person got infected.

[1] https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/13073778096192880...

[2] https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/13073812979171614...

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#906
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. How many people saw the CDC lied about masks and then poisoned themselves because they thought the CDC was lying about ivermectin or hydrochloroquine? After she caught covid it took me days to convince my grandmother to stop taking ivermectin.

Ivermectin is used on billions of people and proven quite safe.

Taking a drug that gave her intense and persistent diarrhea is not safe for an eighty year old who already had trouble staying hydrated.

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but as a private company I dont think that data is public anymore. Twitter has publicly laid off about 75% of its staff fairly evenly across the entire company. We don't have exact counts of employees, but we know how many employees the company used to have, and we know roughly how many were fired. So now look at job postings; has Twitter put out calls to hire thousands of moderators to replace those people? No. >…

>You can't just say something is false if you don't like it. No I trust experts in the field who by and large say CSAM is WAY WAY WAY down on the platform since Elon took over, and previous twitter exec turned a blind eye to the issue ignoring both internal and external sources while they focused on banning wrong think >>Unless you have a press release somewhere about Twitter hiring thousands and thousands of additio…

> No I trust experts in the field who by and large say CSAM is WAY WAY WAY down on the platform since Elon took over

Which experts and how is this being measured? Because I can't find sources that confirm that claim: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2022/11/18/elon...

Do you have ANY actual numbers to back that up, at all? Let alone numbers measured by independent experts and not just filtered through Twitter PR?

> I care about the amount of content, not the number of moderators.

I don't know how to get across to you that human moderation requires humans.

The act of moderation requires a human being to sit down, look at a piece of content, and decide if it's in violation of a policy. Then that process is repeated over and over again for the duration of the workday. Having bodies in the chairs to look at the content is not optional.

Particularly not where CSAM is concerned, which is an area where moderator turnover is astronomical because moderating CSAM is effectively the equivalent of feeding your brain poison every day until you have a breakdown and have to go to therapy. It is a nasty, horrible job and there really isn't a way around the fact that it requires a lot of moderators working in rotations. There's a limit to how often someone can be shown horrifying images in a workweek before they decide that they would rather be doing anything at all other than continuing to show up at work.

That part of the moderation job isn't glamorous, and it usually happens behind the scenes with contractors. It's an awful part of the tech industry that doesn't get much attention because it's unpleasant to talk about and unpleasant to acknowledge how much we rely on underpaid contractors ruining their own lives to keep our platforms safe. But the gist is that an engineer doing "hardcore programming" is not a substitute for having thousands and thousands of moderators actually reviewing images.

----

> Just look at the tweets from Ella Irwin

That Elon's current head of safety is praising him isn't surprising -- one thing we've all learned from the way he's run Twitter is that you don't get to work for Elon at all unless you're pretty proactive about praising him.

But there have been zero independent measurements that confirm these claims, and actual experts in the field (read, not just a current employee and a couple fan/activist accounts) are concerned about the direction the platform is headed and about the lack of investment in moderation teams.

But since those experts are talking to journalists and not just posting to Twitter, maybe it doesn't matter what they think /s.

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#908

How can anybody be surprised that so many people belive in so called "conspiracy theories" when many of them looks like true. The rising tribalism in times of digital information is truly interesting phenomenon. When most people realise how easily we are manipulated just by words and images in media, trust in any information will not exist. We are really go to post-truth times.

It seems to me that many of the current changes in society are not really changes, but just the ending of what was an abnormal little, extremely pleasant, bubble in time. And it's in that bubble that "we" (Westerner, over the age of ~30) all grew up in. "Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of m…

Back then, news, or even ability to read anything was not available as it is today. So it is a little bit different in a scale.

"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#909
post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, this as how human societies naturally build consensus.

No, consensus building is the reverse. It's people playing the game vs. the game playing people: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/qanon-game-plays-beli... Consensus building is looking for ways to persuade people who aren't predisposed to an idea to come around to it (and because it's bidirectional, simultaneously being open to ideas one isn't predisposed to). Conspiracy theories are looking for ways to become…

"Conspiracy theories are looking for ways to become something that fits people's predispositions." Maybe that is exactly yours predisposition?

Re: How Twitter moderated the Covid debate

#910
post #530
post #424

There’s apparently a lot of people upset about Twitter for trying to manage misinformation. I’d like to see equal information leaked from Fox for comparison, who should have journalistic integrity since they’re a news company. It seems weird to me that Twitter is the only one people seem to be up in arms about, and not the times the US president did things like suggest to the public, on live national tv, that consumi…

But twitter is supposed to be a dumb pipe and its role is to facilitate the debate, not to take sides. That's why people are upset. The parallelism is not with Fox, but like if FCC was jamming the airwaves of tv channels it doesnt like It still seems weird to me to give digital services a free pass on ethical matters

Then why dumb pipe should be worth 44B$? And you are contradicting yourself - if something is facilitate debate (as opposed to enable) then it is not dumb.
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