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The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

ineteconomics.org

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Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#41

Post by dragonwriter »

klipklop wrote: post #31
malandrew wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not the contract though. I and many others here have been paying in for years with the expectation that I can withdraw at 65. Honestly we should allow people to opt out entirely if they can demonstrate that they are adequately funding their own retirement/disability on their own plan. Social Security as it exists now is a Ponzi scheme.

Yeah if given a chance I would 100% opt out. Even if it was post tax dollars. I would rather manage my own future.

Social security is quasi-mandatory minimal insurance against you failing your personal retirement investments (quasi-mandatory because their are a narrow set of employers not required to participate, so you can opt-out by choosing to work for one of them.)

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#42

Post by jandrewrogers »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #14
ericmcer wrote: post #10

It feels like social security should be split into two things: disability for workers pre-retirement, and a Trust fund for retired workers. They are using the first as a justification to plunder the second. If it was just a retirement trust fund it would be ludicrous for the government to handle it in the way they do.

The first should be prioritized much more than the second anyways. There's no reason SS is age based and not means based

> There's no reason SS is age based and not means based

Political support for Social Security has always been based on the proposition that it is universal and that the benefit reflects contribution. While not required by law -- Social Security taxes are an ordinary income tax per the US Supreme Court -- this has been the explicit contract the government has made and reaffirmed repeatedly with the people for generations. It is an embedded part of the institution of Social Security.

Fundamentally changing the rules at this point would be viewed as a serious violation of trust between the people and the government, at a time when that trust is already at historic lows. Pragmatic politicians also understand that this would greatly erode support for Social Security taxes, since willingness to pay that 12.4% income surtax is strongly connected to the conception that this money will be returned to them in old age. Most politicians have the survival instinct to not even suggest this is not the case, legal technicalities aside.

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#43

Post by SQueeeeeL »

echelon wrote: post #34
staringback wrote: post #27

And yet home ownership rate is higher today than it was at any time between (1965-1997) with an upward trend. If housing was so easily affordable back "then", why didn't everybody buy a house? Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N

People are looking at modern times as if they're worse, when they're almost strictly better than everything that came before us. Far less of the world lives in poverty. People in developed nations have more access to information, entertainment, lifestyle choices, etc. Big media sells fear. Social media amplifies rage. They both create a miasma of doom that isn't reflective of the upward trajectory we've been on and c…

These types of arguments basically always reek of bootlicking to me. It's always a vague "things were better" when the material reality of the situation is everyone feels insanely economically insecure and feels a massive amount of anxiety. We're watching the aggregation of wealth by massive corporation and the loss of "good jobs", while wealth concentrates in the hands of those who already possess it.

I refuse to believe a future where me and all my community have a home and stable lives is unattainable, and anyone who tries to rationalize why we should be happy with scraps deserves their fate of a pitiful of indenture to Amazon

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#44

Post by throwaway6734 »

malandrew wrote: post #29
throwaway6734 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first should be prioritized much more than the second anyways. There's no reason SS is age based and not means based

That’s not the contract though. I and many others here have been paying in for years with the expectation that I can withdraw at 65. Honestly we should allow people to opt out entirely if they can demonstrate that they are adequately funding their own retirement/disability on their own plan. Social Security as it exists now is a Ponzi scheme.

What contract? I'm in my early 30s and when I look at social security, healthcare costs, and housing costs I see the results of older generations shirking their load at the cost of future generations

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#45

Post by malandrew »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #13
browheresmychar wrote: post #3

It's crazy how we make 10x more money for our companies than our grandparents or parents did but are unable to afford basic lives (wife, house, kids). My dad did it delivering pepsi products.

It all comes back to housing costs. A generation of Americans pushed restrictive zoning policy so they could inflate the price of their biggest asset. Housing can either be a good investment or affordable, but not both.

The US population has also grown by over 50% since 1965 or so. That’s a lot more competition for land.

The percent of Americans living in urban areas has also grown over time.

Together we have more American competing for limited urban real estate.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Percent-of-US-Population...

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#46

Post by malandrew »

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #43
echelon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are looking at modern times as if they're worse, when they're almost strictly better than everything that came before us. Far less of the world lives in poverty. People in developed nations have more access to information, entertainment, lifestyle choices, etc. Big media sells fear. Social media amplifies rage. They both create a miasma of doom that isn't reflective of the upward trajectory we've been on and c…

These types of arguments basically always reek of bootlicking to me. It's always a vague "things were better" when the material reality of the situation is everyone feels insanely economically insecure and feels a massive amount of anxiety. We're watching the aggregation of wealth by massive corporation and the loss of "good jobs", while wealth concentrates in the hands of those who already possess it. I refuse to be…

That’s not the material reality you’ve described because you immediately followed with “…everyone feels…”.

Material reality would be something measured in objective material benefits enjoyed.

Everything people read and consume today teaches them to feel things are worse because doomscrolling produces greater engagement.

It’s the same reason people feel “injured” (offended) by things that boomers in their day would find laughable.

It’s incredibly profitable to sell people their own discontent.

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#47

Post by malandrew »

drdec wrote: post #28
tunesmith wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn more about social security. The worst case scenario is that you'd get roughly 74% of your promised benefit. If Congress intervenes, the outlook will improve. All the arguments are about how much of that shortfall to make up, and how to do it. Aside from some GOP outliers, the broad consensus is that it will continue to exist.

That's really the that for people who will be collecting in 8-10 years. For the under 40 crowd, they don't need it for 25 years and who knows how the demographics will play out then.

Imagine paying in from age 15 to age 55 and then being told that in 10 years you’re going to 74% of what you’ve been paying for for 40 years. You’re 4/5ths of the way there before the bait and switch.

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#48

Post by throwaway6734 »

malandrew wrote: post #45
throwaway6734 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all comes back to housing costs. A generation of Americans pushed restrictive zoning policy so they could inflate the price of their biggest asset. Housing can either be a good investment or affordable, but not both.

The US population has also grown by over 50% since 1965 or so. That’s a lot more competition for land. The percent of Americans living in urban areas has also grown over time. Together we have more American competing for limited urban real estate. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Percent-of-US-Population...

It's not just urban areas where housing prices have skyrocketed but suburban as well. There's no reason du & tri plexes are illegal in so many suburban areas

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#49

Post by ericmcer »

dragonwriter wrote: post #40
ericmcer wrote: post #10

It feels like social security should be split into two things: disability for workers pre-retirement, and a Trust fund for retired workers. They are using the first as a justification to plunder the second. If it was just a retirement trust fund it would be ludicrous for the government to handle it in the way they do.

> It feels like social security should be split into two things: disability for workers pre-retirement, and a Trust fund for retired workers. It...is: the Old Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Disability Insurance Trust Fund are separate funds that pay for different programs administered by Social Security. > They are using the first as a justification to plunder the second No, “they” (who?) aren’t. > If…

Thats true I definitely don’t know all the details of SS, just that it makes up an obscene amount of my yearly taxes (13%). So would you pay into the trust if it was optional? Why can’t I defer my SS payments by paying an equal amount into my 401k? If the purpose is to prevent society having to support elderly workers who failed to save anything that would also tick the box, but then the govt wouldn’t get to touch the money.

Re: The Grinch Stealing the Future of Gen Y and Z

#50

Post by steve76 »

ch4s3 wrote: post #16
_dain_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Living standards" is such a weaselly term here. Yeah maybe you can afford a dishwasher and a car and nice clothes, but what about when you step outside your door? Being in a city with interesting things to do is an intangible good that many people like, compared to being in a smaller town with fewer amenities (nevermind well-paid jobs). It used to be affordable, now it's expensive. That's a regression no matter how…

I see where you're coming from, but talking to my father-in-law who grew up in Queens in the 60s and he remembers something quite different. The city was a dangerous mess and they never went to Manhattan, they essentially never left Astoria. They didn't take vacations, have A/C, his room was basically a walk in closet with a window, they ate awful food most fo the time, and went to a low cost catholic school. He has…

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