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Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

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Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#181

Post by lillecarl »

defrost wrote: post #173
ShredKazoo wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US handily outranks Sweden on median wage as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

These are not apples to apples comparisons though, for the very reasons mentioned upthread. A median wage of $32K in Sweden might come with near zero expenses for health, education, additional security, daily transport, etc. A median US wage of $47K might incure additional expenses for health, education, etc. These are post tax "median disposable income per person" figures - and other countries get a great deal more…

If this is after taxes then the numbers are indeed way different. I effectively pay 55% taxes on my income (some is nicely hidden behind an employers tax so that the population doesn't see how much they're actually paying). The employers tax isn't part of your income, but it's part of what companies pay for your time.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#182

Post by ShredKazoo »

null_object wrote: post #140
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had never been made to feel like a freak for being a programmer until I moved to Sweden. Are you saying that Sweden is a sexist society? Do you mind me asking where have you been before?

> Are you saying that Sweden is a sexist society? Sweden is such an interesting paradox: womens’ rights to work in different fields and (mostly) on an equal footing are protected in law, and (in my experience) in practice. And yet in many ways I find it generally the most gender-divided country I’ve experienced, and I’ve even lived in countries that most people would consider very sexist, like the UK and Spain. There…

>countries that most people would consider very sexist, like the UK and Spain.

For what it's worth -- I've visited both those countries, and neither struck me as particularly sexist. I just checked a couple gender inequality indices, and it seems like they both do OK globally speaking. E.g. the UN ranks them both as more gender-equal than the US: https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/thematic-composite-indices/... (And the US is ranked much more gender-equal than the world as a whole)

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#183

Post by trashtester »

defrost wrote: post #117
ergocoder wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocate for violence is cool again... for people who don't agree with you

That's not what was advocated. He recognised, as a manager, that Damore was that person that provokes people to the point where normal everyday people want to punch him. Part of being a good manager is recognising people's traits.

I would argue that Damore when writing his memo acted out his autism. A neurotypical person would probably understand that within the culture in Google at the time, such a memo would be seen as sacriligeus. An autist is more likely to just say what they believe to be true, with no such filter.

Essentially, it was a direct assault at some of the fundamentals of an entire belief system.

Now let's imagine for a moment that he were completely accurate on the science. If, so, and if his memo were to be taken seriously, it would invalidate the motivation for the DEI narrative, with the following implications:

- Some senior roles would no longer be needed

- People who had been hired or promoted to fulfill DEI goals might be in their position not based on merit, but rather a false belief

- The belief systems of a significant percentage of the staff would be shattered, causing very painful cognitive dissonance, as well as anger (quite possibly enough to make them want to punch him)

All-in-all this would be a disaster especially if he happened to be right. If so, the only way to avoid the negative effects listed above, would be to discredit him and get rid of him.

Of course, if he happened to be mosly wrong on the science, he might still be treated the same way, but I believe, with slightly less passion.

Greta Thunberg is another autist making claims that are seen as radical:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/neurodiver...

Basically, she's claiming that we have until 2028 to prevent a climate catastrophe:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90453825/greta-thunberg-we-have-...

Now, let's again pretend that she's 100% correct. That starting in 2028 we will start to see chain reactions that make much of the planet unlivable within her lifetime.

If she's right, and we admit it, we will all be forced to completely reorganize society. Gasoline fueled cars may have to be banned, and air travel almost completly disbanded. And we should all become vegeterians, and we would need to radically reduce our consumption of all sorts of both industrial and digital products. Also, any housing with high per capita heating requirements might have to be torn down, and people forced to move into much smaller units.

Also, most middle aged or older person would have to accept that they were the ones nearly destroying Earth, until people like Greta came along as saviors. A lot of shame would be in order.

Now especially if this were all 100% accurate, a lot of people would become extremely angry at her, and might want to do a lot more than simply punshing her.

Clearly, her message is not taken very seriously. Politicians are paying lip service to her, but no state is seriously attempting to take the kind of radical action she is demanding. Instead she's seen by many as something of a heroine or perhaps a mascot.

And if anyone actually wants to do something violent against her, THEY are the problem, not her.

As it should be.

But why is Damore treated like the Devil, while Greta was invited to speak in front of the UN?

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#184

Post by realjhol »

ehnto wrote: post #174
mpweiher wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can be right that it's common to see and still wrong that it's an innate part of being a woman. It's not "an innate part of being a woman". It's an innate part of being human . Last I checked, around 2% of people go into tech. That means that 98% of all people prefer something else. Is there something wrong with them that needs explaining? Don't think so. Is there something wrong with society because these 98%…

> It's an innate part of being human. That's the point I am making. My point is not that everyone should be in tech, my point is that there is a disparity and if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be. > Now the genders skew slightly differently, for men it's more like 97% prefer to do something else, and with women it's 99% who prefer to do something else. So what? Let people do what they want to do. Th…

> my point is that there is a disparity and if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be.

Yes but why do you assume that? What if your assumption is wrong, as the above study shows? Then the disparity would be explained simply by the natural proclivities of different groups of people.

> one group is systemically discouraged from taking on tech even if they want to

Again this in another article of faith.

Notice how feminists always use the passive voice: women are "discouraged", not "these specific people are conspiring to discourage women for this specific reason".

It's a motte-and-bailey trick to prevent anyone being able to call out their nonsense claims.

Why does anyone want to discourage women from going into tech? My own daughter shows some interest in these things. Perhaps she will enter the field - or perhaps she'd prefer something else. I don't mind. She should do whatever would make her happy.

It just turns out that women on average are slightly more likely to choose something else than man are.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#185

Post by ShredKazoo »

guerrilla wrote: post #177
midoridensha wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austria ranks 79 on masculinity. Japan ranks 95, probably one of the highest. >The Masculinity side of this dimension represents a preference in society for achievement, heroism, assertiveness, and material rewards for success. This definitely does not sound like the Japan I live in, almost the opposite in fact. Japanese people are absolutely not known for assertiveness in particular; it's very much the opposite, the…

I'm starting to wonder if this is just a frontend issue... Maybe this UI is serving us the inverse numbers.

Sweden is ranked as having very low masculinity though

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#186

Post by null_object »

lillecarl wrote: post #175
ShredKazoo wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US handily outranks Sweden on median wage as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

I'm not sure it's related to your question of "Is there an important sense in which Sweden has more abundant resources than, say, the US?". The answer is yes, in some cases. Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and every…

> Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and everyone gets access to education and food.

From your username I’m going to assume you can read Swedish, in which case I’ll recommend Andreas Cervanka’s latest book on the redistribution of wealth in Sweden in recent decades, in favor of the richest in society:

https://www.adlibris.com/se/bok/girig-sverige-sa-blev-folkhe...

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#187

Post by mpweiher »

archagon wrote: post #144
wreath wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Or maybe grow up & don’t circulate political manifestos at work?

1. The memo was feedback that was explicitly solicited

2. He didn't circulate it, others did.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#188

Post by Ferret7446 »

null_object wrote: post #140
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had never been made to feel like a freak for being a programmer until I moved to Sweden. Are you saying that Sweden is a sexist society? Do you mind me asking where have you been before?

> Are you saying that Sweden is a sexist society? Sweden is such an interesting paradox: womens’ rights to work in different fields and (mostly) on an equal footing are protected in law, and (in my experience) in practice. And yet in many ways I find it generally the most gender-divided country I’ve experienced, and I’ve even lived in countries that most people would consider very sexist, like the UK and Spain. There…

Have you considered the possibility that, when given true freedom and not being pressured into certain roles by society, that men and women strongly gravitate to different fields? It could be that the only reason we see more mixing in other societies is that those societies subtly (or not so subtly) pressure people into taking those roles.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#189

Post by ehnto »

mpweiher wrote: post #178
ehnto wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an innate part of being human. That's the point I am making. My point is not that everyone should be in tech, my point is that there is a disparity and if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be. > Now the genders skew slightly differently, for men it's more like 97% prefer to do something else, and with women it's 99% who prefer to do something else. So what? Let people do what they want to do. Th…

> if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be Incorrect assumption. Everyone is obviously not equal. For example: 2% of people like tech enough to work there, 98% do not. These two groups are obviously not equal. > but one group is systemically discouraged from taking on tech even if they want to What evidence do you have for this "systematic discouragement"? Of the 98% of people who do not go into tech? H…

>> if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be > Incorrect assumption. Everyone is obviously not equal.

I was quoting you. There are some practical differences obviously, but I don't believe any of them should mean women are less inclined to enjoy technical jobs.

> What evidence do you have for this "systematic discouragement"? Of the 98% of people who do not go into tech? How so?

Speak to women who are in tech, ask them what their experience was like. I haven't got any studies for you I'm afraid, it would seem we're debating in experiences so I don't think this will be constructive.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#190

Post by ShredKazoo »

lillecarl wrote: post #175
ShredKazoo wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US handily outranks Sweden on median wage as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

I'm not sure it's related to your question of "Is there an important sense in which Sweden has more abundant resources than, say, the US?". The answer is yes, in some cases. Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and every…

>If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps

In this hypothetical, the median income will be very low.

I'm not trying to be combative, I just try to correct misconceptions when I see them. It seems like some people have the misconception that the US is a place of a few superyachts and mostly foodstamps. That's not really the case.

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