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Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

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Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#121
I think this is a worthwhile study but also think we place too much emphasis on personality types.

My wife studied primary (elementary) school teaching for 4 years and then was a teacher for over 6 years. After she became tired of the profession she was able to self-teach web dev for 9 months using Udemy and now has been working as a software developer for roughly a year now.

Nominally a study like this might have put her into the caring profession box a few years ago but she is professionally ambidextrous, and likely other people surveyed will be too.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#122
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On average women find tech work grindingly boring. No evidence of that. > There's no evidence that adults are creating this bias. They are not. Are you absolutely certain? It's the subject of quite a bit of research. > Why is it a problem? It isn't. Just let people do what they want with their lives. Kids don't know what they want to do with their lives, they get lead down various paths by their upbringing. Plenty…

>> On average women find tech work grindingly boring. > No evidence of that Are you for real? Have you ever tried to talk to any women about technology? With occasional exceptions, the response you will get is a face that has completely glazed over. This is only a problem for people who believe in egalitarian ideology - where every group is supposed to be at all times "equal" in ways that are simply not bourne out in…

> Have you ever tried to talk to any women about technology?

All the time - they love technology.

Sue runs all the books on the local family farm (which is a large multi million $ enterprise), she pulls in all the GPS logs to a NAS, databases the livestock tags, has bots watching the stock sales.

Robyn runs a super computing facility for the local SKA project (Square kilometre array) after being the Vice C. of the local university, after consolidating the Comp Sci, Math, Engineering Streams overlap into a specialised STEM course.

Danni next door hacks J.Deere software and runs an agronomy consulting group with web prescence.

Joy left running a heavy industry electrical contract company behind after selling it and now runs a GIS consulting group.

I'm guessing it's you and where you are - in this part of the world there are plenty of women into tech.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#123
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that one should discern strength when actually caring or not caring to injure someone else in the process.

I don't know what you're saying here.

I think parent is saying something like "rather than measuring strength by wrestling old men out of bathtubs, we should measure it in a way that doesn't get different results based on how much one cares about not hurting another person."

I agree, of course, but I believe the wrestling comment did not refer to the methodology used in the research.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ranking of countries by uncertainty avoidance is part of Hofstede's cultural dimensions theory ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimens... ). There is a website where you can easily compare countries ( https://www.hofstede-insights.com/ ).

Thanks... This seems pretty counterintuitive though. Sweden: 29 United States: 49 Switzerland: 58 Thailand: 65 Italy: 75 Portugal: 99 > The extent to which the members of a culture feel threatened by ambiguous or unknown situations and have created beliefs and institutions that try to avoid these is reflected in the score on Uncertainty Avoidance. My experience is that those numbers pretty much rank in reverse when i…

When I compare various countries on the "masculinity" index, it seems to me that they're all completely backwards.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#125
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need confirmations like that to say he was right. He was right, and we know that because his arguments were (relatively) well-built, so they are really worth considering.

Define "well-built". His choice of wording is poor, and it's clear in most cases he assumes he's "right" - rather than posing a question and linking to supporting evidence for why he "might be right". The way to start a good conversation isn't Authoritarian: "You're wrong, and I'm right. Now let me lecture you why." It's Seneca style: "here's some things I noticed that are weird and don't add up, let's discuss, and -…

> His choice of wording is poor, and it's clear in most cases he assumes he's "right" - rather than posing a question and linking to supporting evidence for why he "might be right".

There's also some effort required on the reader's part here. You should dig through some bad phrasing and for each statement that the writer makes, ask yourself, "what's the strongest interpretation of this that can be backed up?" A good reader tries to get the most out of it, and not discard it because of the form (how would Seneca read it?).

The way I read his statement is that woke agenda does not deserve so much trust, and there's plenty of reasons to question Google's official view on gender-equality; that having an opposing view is a valid position, which makes you neither a foil-hat-flat-earth psycho, nor a misogynist, nor a bad person. There's enough uncertainly in this question to make both opinions valid, and allow people to pick the one they like. And for woke people, this statement is enough of a reason to "cancel" someone.

Thinking that he insists on his view being the only right one is a bit of a strawman argument. I say "a bit" because I admit that he chose a rather provoking manner to make his statement, but I still say "strawman" because you could easily read it differently. I assume he did it because his opponents also do that, and it may have been an emotional choice to some extent. And, as I said, if we've established that there's enough uncertainty in this question to make it a matter of preference (for now, until the science gives us a definitive answer), it's ok to advertise the choice you prefer in an emotional and provoking manner — which I think is also one of the goals of the memo.

To summarize, I think there's some good things to extract from there if you put in effort. And for a non-expert, he did ok of a job writing it.

> asking for trouble...

It doesn't justify what they did to him, I don't understand why you'd even mention this. "She wore a short skirt, so she asked for harassment" — literally the same victim-blaming technique.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#126
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need confirmations like that to say he was right. He was right, and we know that because his arguments were (relatively) well-built, so they are really worth considering.

Define "well-built". His choice of wording is poor, and it's clear in most cases he assumes he's "right" - rather than posing a question and linking to supporting evidence for why he "might be right". The way to start a good conversation isn't Authoritarian: "You're wrong, and I'm right. Now let me lecture you why." It's Seneca style: "here's some things I noticed that are weird and don't add up, let's discuss, and -…

> His choice of wording is poor, and it's clear in most cases he assumes he's "right" - rather than posing a question and linking to supporting evidence for why he "might be right".

Are people not allowed to think they are correct? That’s clearly a bad-faith accusation. Just look at your comment, it directly contradicts your own imaginary standards of discourse.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Why do female chimpanzees prefer to play with human dolls more than male chimpanzees if it's not a DEEP GENETIC DRIVE?

Female chimpanzees prefer to play with objects and use them as tools more than male chimpanzees overall. Most often, female chimps are observed using them as play weapons.[1] On one single occasion, some female chimps were observed carrying some logs and "slapping" them. This was interpreted as playing with dolls and then it was all over the news that female chimps play with dolls.[2] Humans aren't the only primates…

Tangentially, I think I read somewhere once that there's more genetic variance between two random chimps from two chimp tribes in the same forest than between two random humans from opposite sides of the planet.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#128
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "well-built". His choice of wording is poor, and it's clear in most cases he assumes he's "right" - rather than posing a question and linking to supporting evidence for why he "might be right". The way to start a good conversation isn't Authoritarian: "You're wrong, and I'm right. Now let me lecture you why." It's Seneca style: "here's some things I noticed that are weird and don't add up, let's discuss, and -…

> His choice of wording is poor, and it's clear in most cases he assumes he's "right" - rather than posing a question and linking to supporting evidence for why he "might be right". There's also some effort required on the reader's part here. You should dig through some bad phrasing and for each statement that the writer makes, ask yourself, "what's the strongest interpretation of this that can be backed up?" A good…

> There's also some effort required on the reader's part here

Obviously. A well constructed argument requires minimal effort - and avoids flamebait and opinion - so it's easier to focus on the actual points...

> There's enough uncertainly in this question to make both opinions valid, and allow people to pick the one they like.

We should be trying to arrive at the truth, not arbitrarily picking opinions based on feelings or whatever fits your world view.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#129

> gender differences appear to be greater in societies with greater gender equality and in which people have greater economic resources I don't think this is a paradox at all. Discouraging 50% of the workforce talent pool is a wasteful luxury that only countries with abundant resources can afford. I experienced this first hand when I moved to Sweden. I had never been made to feel like a freak for being a programmer u…

>a wasteful luxury that only countries with abundant resources can afford.

Is there an important sense in which Sweden has more abundant resources than, say, the US?

The US outranks Sweden in both of these tables:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_w...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocate for violence is cool again... for people who don't agree with you

That's not what was advocated. He recognised, as a manager, that Damore was that person that provokes people to the point where normal everyday people want to punch him. Part of being a good manager is recognising people's traits.

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