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Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

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61–70 of 115 posts

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#61
I don't work for Southwest, but, I have friends that do.

The situation is kind of amplified by the fact that they are now doing crew scheduling by hand -- their crew scheduling system went offline at some point during this fiasco -- and because they aren't a hub and spoke style of airline, they don't have flight attendants at their hubs...so, what's happening is that flight attendants are scheduled for a "leg" of a trip, from Altoona to Boston to Columbus to Dallas to Edison. This flight attendant will be on that plane from Altoona until they wrap up in Edison. Because of this interruption, they cancel the flight from Altoona to Boston. Now, they need to find a plane (and a crew) in Boston to fly the leg from Boston to Columbus...cascading failures throughout their system. Add in phone system failures, a winter storm, and the busiest travel week of the year, and you've got what Southwest has right now.

You have crew timing out, crews that are abandoned at stations, and some folks telling people to not expect their luggage for 30+ days. Southwest has also been delaying negotiating with their ground crew (it's been three+ years since they've had a contract), so, I'm almost certain that when they got the Denver "Operational Emergency" email on the 21st, most of them said screw it and quit: every other airline has struggled to hire experienced folks and my guess is that it won't be long until they're re-employed somewhere else

They've cancelled most flights until Friday, with the exception being flight for aircraft staging, and will struggle to find open seats for their flight attendants to ride on other airlines (even if they are flying space-positive) just so they can have crew at locations for flights.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#62
post #7

There's an unsubstantiated rumor that 120 Southwest ramp agents walked off the job at Denver International Airport after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime. https://twitter.com/AtSouthwest/status/1606543397996855296 If true, it could account for a majority of SW's cancellatio…

> after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime IANAL but that’s not just unreasonable, it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Southwest can only ask their employees for a doctor’s note after four consecutive days of absence and that’s according to a post-COVID l…

> it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws.

Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#63
post #16
post #14

Found this interesting reading as to a possible reason why their flight system seems so much more fragile than the legacy carriers: https://www.inc.com/kelly-main/southwest-becomes-one-of-amer...

It sounds reasonable but I’m surprised that it’s not “cost efficient” to have a few sore planes and crews strategically located around the USA - you’d only need three or four to be able to respond within hours to any scheduling mishap. Margins must be quite low.

Yes margins on the core flying are pathetically low. Planes are $50 million+ pieces of capital equipment and high utilization is the only way to make the numbers work. Southwest is legendary for their quick turns which keep utilization high. It's just not as resilient during irregular operations.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime IANAL but that’s not just unreasonable, it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Southwest can only ask their employees for a doctor’s note after four consecutive days of absence and that’s according to a post-COVID l…

> it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

It's not a US law, it's a state law. And there are plenty of laws throughout the union that are "better" (more favorable to the employee) than in various places in the EU. California, for instance, has pretty strict employee/tenant protections; along with Oregon, New York, etc. There are also others that are substantially worse (Mississippi, Alabama, etc).

You can't compare US Federal law to German Federal law (in these cases), as the Federal government is significantly and substantively hands off to labor concerns (beyond the bare minimum). You would have to compare specific state statutes to Bundesrat+Bundesland statutes.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#65
post #7

There's an unsubstantiated rumor that 120 Southwest ramp agents walked off the job at Denver International Airport after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime. https://twitter.com/AtSouthwest/status/1606543397996855296 If true, it could account for a majority of SW's cancellatio…

Currently at another airport waiting to fly into DFW, and this is the current word among the airport crew as well: that Southwest is uniquely impacted right now because a bunch of the Southwest staff at Dallas just quit.

Oh that sucks. How is the weather there, is the distance such that you can rent a car or have some other means of transportation? Not a good time of the year to be stuck.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

It's not a US law, it's a state law. And there are plenty of laws throughout the union that are "better" (more favorable to the employee) than in various places in the EU. California, for instance, has pretty strict employee/tenant protections; along with Oregon, New York, etc. There are also others that are substantially worse (Mississippi, Alabama, etc). You can't compare US Federal law to German Federal law (in th…

I meant "the first time I hear" quite literally, I know there are state laws and those can be quite different, I just had never heard of a specific law regarding employee protection that actually was better for employees

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime IANAL but that’s not just unreasonable, it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Southwest can only ask their employees for a doctor’s note after four consecutive days of absence and that’s according to a post-COVID l…

> it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

I know I'm a spoiled engineer but if a company ever required a doctor's note I'd just come to work sick, walk into my boss's office and cough as hard as I could directly in their face.

Actually, I'd just not take that job.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#68
post #7

There's an unsubstantiated rumor that 120 Southwest ramp agents walked off the job at Denver International Airport after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime. https://twitter.com/AtSouthwest/status/1606543397996855296 If true, it could account for a majority of SW's cancellatio…

> after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime IANAL but that’s not just unreasonable, it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Southwest can only ask their employees for a doctor’s note after four consecutive days of absence and that’s according to a post-COVID l…

If they're unionized, why don't they all walk out now, in solidarity after a memo like that? I mean, it's the perfect time--You can practically see management's desperation leaping out of the screen. WTF is with that? Speak a magical incantation and suddenly labor rules don't matter? "I declare Double Secret Operation Emergency! Due to the emergency that we caused and we magically invoked, here's how we're going to beat you..."

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

I know I'm a spoiled engineer but if a company ever required a doctor's note I'd just come to work sick, walk into my boss's office and cough as hard as I could directly in their face. Actually, I'd just not take that job.

It's extremely common in Germany, it's a form letter, and you get two versions, one for yourself with details, one for your employer which lacks details, especially the reason.

Re: Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime IANAL but that’s not just unreasonable, it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Southwest can only ask their employees for a doctor’s note after four consecutive days of absence and that’s according to a post-COVID l…

> it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

Germany has the legal concept of Mitbestimmung [1] and Betriebsverfassungsgesetz legislation [2]

US Laws = European common sense. You did stick us with the protestants after all :-)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Constitution_Act

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