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The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

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Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#41

Post by chihuahua »

jupp0r wrote: post #34
klyrs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of movement is tenuous, and one of the greater paradoxes of the modern "libertarian" movement. The freedom isn't even universally supported on the left -- democratic socialist countries rely on high taxes and low economic inequality to maintain their systems, which, the reasoning goes, is unsustainable in the face of an unrestricted influx of economic refugees.

Having been born in East Germany I can assure you that the "Left" is not a proponent of free movement and that they will gladly attempt to shoot you for trying to escape from socialist paradise. Calling US Democrats "socialist" for wanting things like universal free health care makes me cringe in light of that.

You are 100% correct of course.

Political discussions in the U.S. using the word "socialism" are basically meaningless, because people use that word to mean several completely different things:

1. Socialism as practiced in eastern Europe during the Cold War - basically the state is a prison, no one is allowed to leave, people who attempt to leave are shot and left to die, everyone is under surveillance, and dissent is punished very harshly. These governments were proud to call themselves socialist. In East Germany, they referred to themselves as "Socialism as it exists in reality" ("real existierender Sozialimus.") These are not governments that someone is now choosing to call socialist to give socialism a bad name.

2. Socialism as practiced in Europe these days, with a focus on Scandinavia. Somewhat higher taxes, reasonable universal health care, generally people are not left to starve in the street. I'm not sure if it makes sense to call this "socialism." I guess it's social-something.

3. Socialism as a scarecrow in American politics: Anything I don't like is Socialism. Any policy where the government provides benefits is Socialism. Any healthcare system where illness doesn't lead to bankruptcy is Socialism.

As a result, people talk past each other, and discussions tend to become nonsensical. Anyone who wants to have an informed opinion on socialism should just take a look at what happened in East Germany and the rest of eastern Europe from 1945-1990.

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#42

Post by avidphantasm »

gaudat wrote: post #13

According to their web site, you can visit the place without a US visitor visa from the Canada side. As the only entrance to the library is in the US, all non-American visitors passing through US territory to enter the library must understand that their movements will be monitored by the US Border Patrol and the RCMP. Passports and visas are not necessary to enter the Haskell Free Library & Opera House. However, plea…

I have done this. It feels slightly naughty.

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#43

Post by nerdbert »

ralph84 wrote: post #3

Looking at Google Maps it appears several other buildings in the area also straddle the border. The reporter mentioned an insurance dispute in passing, but it would be interesting to have more details on how it all works from a legal perspective. Presumably they get two different property tax bills. Are two different building codes enforced depending on which part of the building you're in?

I don't know how it works in Vermont/Quebec, but there are many houses straddling the Belgian border here in the Netherlands. In those cases, the tax obligation is based on which country the front door opens to.

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#44

Post by nerdbert »

klyrs wrote: post #6
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #2

It's interesting to see the efforts to lock down our once permeable borders succeeding in recent decades. It seems that for much of our history we had no issue with free passage across, but we have in my lifetime used the politics of fear to militarize our borders. Obviously some will disagree but this seems to me a regressive change.

Freedom of movement is tenuous, and one of the greater paradoxes of the modern "libertarian" movement. The freedom isn't even universally supported on the left -- democratic socialist countries rely on high taxes and low economic inequality to maintain their systems, which, the reasoning goes, is unsustainable in the face of an unrestricted influx of economic refugees.

And yet almost all of the most prosperous democratic socialist countries have signed on to allow free movement of people from many of the poorer parts of Europe.

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#45

Post by mynameisvlad »

morelisp wrote: post #29
mynameisvlad wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The page you linked mentions several non-passport alternatives. Yes, the requirements are stricter in that you have to prove citizenship in some way but there are multiple ways to do that which are WHTI-compliant.

You mean all the things just as hard to get as a passport, some invented specifically to be used for this new program? Sure, I guess you could get one of those instead. But there's no reason to get one of them rather than a passport except as a fig leaf for people to say a passport "isn't mandatory". Or, and bear with me for a second, we could have kept freedoms we had on September 10th, 2001.

It’s far easier to get an EDL than to get a passport, what are you talking about?

We never had Schengen. Almost every other country has similar entry requirements, why should the US and Canada be any different? They’re not in a far-reaching political alliance, there’s no incentive to have open borders or provide exceptions to rules.

9/11 changed things. It’s absurd to expect things to always be the same and just because it was open before doesn’t mean that was ever intended or expected to be permanent.

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#46

Post by ShroudedNight »

morelisp wrote: post #29
mynameisvlad wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The page you linked mentions several non-passport alternatives. Yes, the requirements are stricter in that you have to prove citizenship in some way but there are multiple ways to do that which are WHTI-compliant.

You mean all the things just as hard to get as a passport, some invented specifically to be used for this new program? Sure, I guess you could get one of those instead. But there's no reason to get one of them rather than a passport except as a fig leaf for people to say a passport "isn't mandatory". Or, and bear with me for a second, we could have kept freedoms we had on September 10th, 2001.

NEXUS is genuinely faster than a passport

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#47

Post by triceratops »

chihuahua wrote: post #41
jupp0r wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been born in East Germany I can assure you that the "Left" is not a proponent of free movement and that they will gladly attempt to shoot you for trying to escape from socialist paradise. Calling US Democrats "socialist" for wanting things like universal free health care makes me cringe in light of that.

You are 100% correct of course. Political discussions in the U.S. using the word "socialism" are basically meaningless, because people use that word to mean several completely different things: 1. Socialism as practiced in eastern Europe during the Cold War - basically the state is a prison, no one is allowed to leave, people who attempt to leave are shot and left to die, everyone is under surveillance, and dissent i…

What they have in Scandinavia is called "social democracy".[1] It's not socialism.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#48

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

sacnoradhq wrote: post #37
jjtheblunt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

northern lower 50?

That's what Canuckistan calls America. ;) And they don't have many snowmobile issues in Florida.

Well they can run on water so they're basically all-terrain jetskis. Florida should be scared of the secret backdoor invasion where it's least expected.

Re: The US-Canada border cuts through the Haskell Free Library and Opera House

#50

Post by SequoiaHope »

chihuahua wrote: post #41
jupp0r wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been born in East Germany I can assure you that the "Left" is not a proponent of free movement and that they will gladly attempt to shoot you for trying to escape from socialist paradise. Calling US Democrats "socialist" for wanting things like universal free health care makes me cringe in light of that.

You are 100% correct of course. Political discussions in the U.S. using the word "socialism" are basically meaningless, because people use that word to mean several completely different things: 1. Socialism as practiced in eastern Europe during the Cold War - basically the state is a prison, no one is allowed to leave, people who attempt to leave are shot and left to die, everyone is under surveillance, and dissent i…

There is another kind of socialism discussed in the USA today. That’s a type of socialism not driven by government but instead direct ownership of the means of production by workers. Basically your economy is a bunch of cooperatives instead of a bunch of firms with a bunch of workers and a small number of owners. The former leads to an economy where everyone is part of the ownership class, eliminating the sharp divide in our current society between owners and workers. It is also a free market system that does not require government intervention to function. This is truer to the writings of Karl Marx than the various 20th century socialisms, as Marx did not generally advocate for a state of affairs where the state owns the means of production.

See for example Richard Wolff for a modern day economist who has been advocating for this type of socialism for a long time. Though you will find a historical through line of advocates going back to the 19th century. Notably there is a growing body of socialists who see the folly and horror of state-run socialisms who have gone back to the original theories and renewed their interest in direct control of collectively owned firms instead of state control.

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