Well, that pretty much explains why people have a hard time "getting" music theory. Gibberish+Goobeltygooksus7
Actually it's a perfectly succinct and easy notation. Not many musicians have a "hard time" getting it, except for those that never cared to study it. In fact, in the history of jazz piss poor black kids that never went to school managed to master music theory just fine. And an enormous amount of people all around the world. The particular example you mention (chord naming) has something like 1/100 the difficulty of…
Why 13th Chords
21–30 of 95 posts
Re: Why 13th Chords
#22I struggle with this every time I write songs. How exactly do you know which direction you should go, and how to transition from verse to chorus (i.e. how to pick good transition chords/notes). Currently, I do this by ear, whatever sounds good, but I know there is a better way.
Re: Why 13th Chords
#23Re: Why 13th Chords
#24To give you an idea of how conservative people were regarding music, even in the beginning of the 20th Century, the Vienna Music Society rejected playing Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht at first on the ground that it had inverted 9th chords [1]. See [2] for an example, it's the first chord in the second bar.
[1] See "reception" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verklärte_Nacht
Re: Why 13th Chords
#25WTH is this doing on HN?
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is
inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic,
flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all
users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something,
please don't also comment that you did.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.htmlRe: Why 13th Chords
#26So, why is it called a 13th chord? Am I missing something obvious, or is it just arbitrary convention that "13th" means "with the 6th and 7th added"?
Re: Why 13th Chords
#27Why is this on HN? Because there is a giant overlap between hackers and musicians.
For those of you interested, but confused, go to a music store and ask for a "fake book," a big collection of tunes in "head chart" format (just melody and the kind of chord symbols being discussed here. Study it like a new programming language. Bang out the chords on a piano, if you can. (Most fake books have a "glossary" of the chords in the front or back.)
Donald Knuth said that when a new CS grad student arrived at Stanford, they didn't ask, "are you a musician?," they just asked, "what instrument do you play?"
Re: Why 13th Chords
#28"gives the chord a very different direction it wants to go" I struggle with this every time I write songs. How exactly do you know which direction you should go, and how to transition from verse to chorus (i.e. how to pick good transition chords/notes). Currently, I do this by ear, whatever sounds good, but I know there is a better way.
What you can do, however, is push yourself to try out new harmonic structures. You can make your chords more complex, you can delay resolution much longer, you can shift keys.
There are also other musical idioms like polytonality, alternate scales, etc. that you can use to expand you horizons.
But ultimately, you still should pick something that sounds right to you.
Re: Why 13th Chords
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually it's a perfectly succinct and easy notation. Not many musicians have a "hard time" getting it, except for those that never cared to study it. In fact, in the history of jazz piss poor black kids that never went to school managed to master music theory just fine. And an enormous amount of people all around the world. The particular example you mention (chord naming) has something like 1/100 the difficulty of…
Piss poor black kids that never went to school can still have good ears. It's all about the ears.
Re: Why 13th Chords
#30So, why is it called a 13th chord? Am I missing something obvious, or is it just arbitrary convention that "13th" means "with the 6th and 7th added"?
1. adding 7 arithmetically to obtain the same note an octave higher;
2. adding in a 7th note to whatever chord you are playing.
But the way the chords are named isn't what you'd guess from those two meanings. If it were, you'd add a 6th to C major to get C6 (that part is true) and then a 7th to C6 to get C13 (that part is not true). Instead, there's yet a third way the notes are "added", namely cumulatively in the following sequence (I've cribbed most of this from the OP):
C C+E+G
C7 C+E+G+B♭
C9 C+E+G+B♭+D
C11 C+E+G+B♭+D+F
C13 C+E+G+B♭+D+F+A
(The author's argument is that while the chords are theoretically defined to include all these notes equally, some notes - especially B♭ - are more important than others. So even if you drop E,G,D,F and only play C+B♭+A, that's still arguably C13. He's saying that's the essence of the chord.)I suppose some arbitrariness is inevitable, because there are only so many letters and numbers to go around, and more chords with a plausible claim to the "best" names -- which, if you know regular expressions, would be something like [A-G][1-9]+ -- than there are names available. One beautiful thing about music is that it isn't math (we have math for that). It seems to overlap with math and then mixes everything up in mind-blowing ways, at which point all you can do is feel. Well, memorize and feel.
Does anyone know historically how C13 got to mean "C+E+G+B♭+D+F+A" rather than "C+E+G+B♭+A", which if you consider things only symbolically, seems more likely? Obviously, it must be because that's what people were playing - but who? Presumably jazz musicians? When was this name settled upon?