Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#41

Post by epistasis » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #31

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

Net zero will make this more common, sadly, either through energy insecurity or people being unable to afford to heat their homes.

Energy will be far cheaper when we switch to a fossil fuel free grid, because the newer technologies are cheaper, and unlike fossil fuels they are on a decreasing cost tech curve. So the sooner we build out the tech, the sooner prices fall.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#42

Post by xyzelement » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #25

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

> "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." There are multiple parts of the world approaching the point of "so hot post-climate-change that you can't survive without air conditioning" at this point, it's not a first world problem. See the map in https://climate.nasa.gov/ask-nasa-climate/3151/too-hot-to-ha... to get a sense of how it's an increasingly global problem. As a result eventually power lo…

Maybe? I am talking about today. The only number of heat deaths I see on this site is average in the US and its like 100-something, likely more related to the aging of the population than anything else.

To be honest I skimmed this article a few times rather that read it but I don't see anything that points to heat being anything close to the magnitude killer that cold is today. (although apparently in the US heat is a bigger deal probably because we are well equipped to handle both and don't have old people taking walks in freezing weather but they venture out in the summer)

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#43

Post by nottorp » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #40

smcl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language Presumably because during winter certain people would point at a freak snowstorm and say "so much for global warming!" to try to minimise it (tbh they still do). Temperature rising has a few more side-effects than just your winter being milder by 1-2C, I think using a different term is entirely appropriate

No, because they are both accurate descriptions, but "global warming" is talking about the average temp. Even as the average goes up, the standard deviation could change too, meaning that even with higher average temp, there can be bigger and colder winter storms, which are balanced out by even higher temps the rest of the time.

There were studies 10-20 years ago predicting that global warming will bring with it completely unpredictable weather and harsher extremes in both directions.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#44

Post by smcl » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #40

smcl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language Presumably because during winter certain people would point at a freak snowstorm and say "so much for global warming!" to try to minimise it (tbh they still do). Temperature rising has a few more side-effects than just your winter being milder by 1-2C, I think using a different term is entirely appropriate

No, because they are both accurate descriptions, but "global warming" is talking about the average temp. Even as the average goes up, the standard deviation could change too, meaning that even with higher average temp, there can be bigger and colder winter storms, which are balanced out by even higher temps the rest of the time.

Wait, why "No"? We're saying the same thing in different way.

you:

> meaning that even with higher average temp, there can be bigger and colder winter storms

me:

> Temperature rising has a few more side-effects than just your winter being milder by 1-2C

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#45

Post by xyzelement » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

carbocation wrote: post #30

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

Minimizing the fact that real humans die from overheating tarnishes an otherwise interesting comment.

I am not minimizing but comparing two sources of danger.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#46

Post by core-utility » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

carbocation wrote: post #30

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

Minimizing the fact that real humans die from overheating tarnishes an otherwise interesting comment.

And that the advent of climate control (Air Conditioning) have significantly minimized heat deaths and allowed humans to live in climates that would have historically been impossible.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#47

Post by clsec » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

cr8tivity wrote: post #24

cr8tivity wrote: post #14

There are ways to donate to help them. https://friendsofpineridgereservation.org/an-electric-heater...

Henry Red Cloud helps change this situation through solar installation, forest planting and foamcrete housing. Truly amazing efforts. https://www.redcloudrenewable.org/

Henry Red Cloud is a good man and does really good work on the rez!

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#48

Post by pigsty » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #20

joemazerino wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There's no rewriting the past. Saying "I'll never amount to anything because of what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago" denies your agency, and thus a fundamental aspect of your humanity. Some people seem to think that the bigotry of low expectations is "social justi…

Put someone in a village 100 miles from the nearest town, deny them the basic infrastructure you provide for everyone else, deny them proper education, skimp on government job programs provided to other struggling towns that would eventually lead to wealth flowing in and free enterprise, and let this wealth divide grow for decades and you’ll see you’ve successfully made a hole to trap people in.

It’s not bigotry. Even if you want to ignore the centuries of active destruction of their families, the infrastructure gap is huge. Take a look at, say, the difference between Japan and Vietnam. Both got absolutely leveled by the US. One of them had infrastructure rebuilt by the US and investment in local enterprise by the US government. One is a rich country. One is a very poor country that’s only recently rising up… because other people are coming in and helping build infrastructure and providing jobs for a people who were crushed and isolated from the world for decades.

There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. Any successful place built from “nothing” got there through getting outside investment in some form, or through centuries of time left to grow through their own means. Plus their lands continue to be exploited. When oil or water or something is used by an outside company, instead of letting them have it and enriching the people on the land, eminent domain is exercised or companies buy it from the gov for pennies.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#49

Post by dragoncrab » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

Heat is less likely to kill you directly if you aren't forced to do physical work without any protection. However, tens of thousands of square kilometers of agricultural land is turned to desert in Central Europe with every single degree the yearly average temperature rises. Droughts are decimating crops made for prices skyrocket even before the war in Ukraine. That has some harder to attribute but none of the less serious killer potential.

On your other thoughts: I live in a well insulated home (30 cm brick wall with 18 cm graphite insulation). With a 30 celsius difference in internal and external temperature and no heating, my living room drops about 1,5 - 2 Celsius a day. Starting from 21, that gives a week before situation starts to become serrious during a complete blackout.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#50

Post by ilyt » Mon, Dec 26, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

I'm perplexed how folks using gas or wood apparently have less than a week or two worth of heating stored. Back when I lived in small village we always had at least month+ (not too uncommon to buy the supply for whole winter too) worth of coal/wood there.