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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#431

Post by davedx »

joshuanapoli wrote: post #174
linsomniac wrote: post #9

Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact. Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps. While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely "cold", before the huge cold…

It’s strange that people’s experiences are so varied with EVs in cold weather. Here it’s 14F right now and my Model Y is charging at 30 mph (versus 32 mph in warm weather). Driving 120 miles this morning at 11F used maybe 10% more energy than normal. The doors, though, we’re quite sticky and frustrating to open.

The Model Y has a heat pump, that helps a lot.

That being said I’ve not noticed charging issues with my Model 3, this is my 3rd winter, last week we regularly had -7 C in the night. Does seem to be a lot of variability

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#432

Post by davedx »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #421

This is comedy gold: >Start the vehicle while it’s plugged in to allow the battery to warm up. “The key is warming that battery up,"

What’s the comedy? I always used to let my petrol car engine run a few mins till it warmed up on very cold mornings too

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#433

Post by einarfd »

michpoch wrote: post #409
Renevith wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I left for the second drive, the car's navigation app estimated I'd have 13% left when I arrived, and the estimates have been impressively good so I just went for it. But I also was in a good sized metro area with a couple Tesla superchargers not far off my route, so my backup plan was to stop at one for 15 minutes if it ever looked like I might not make it.

What would have happened if there is a road closure and you need to drive extra 20kms? Or a traffic jam that would make you wait one hour?

20km is less than what he has left of charge. If the detour is earlier in the drive. He could have gone to a supercharger. If he gets stuck in a jam for hours, it makes no difference. The car hardly uses any power when standing still, it will heat the cabin but other than that it uses no power. I've tried this myself, I once got stuck in double digit cold for around an hour in a model 3 outside Hamar. It made no difference to my range.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#434

Post by glogla »

tjoff wrote: post #425
mynameisvlad wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 240V charger, as parent commenter said, more than makes up for whatever losses are inherent in heating the car and battery. I have an uncovered space and it’s fine . Yeah, the battery sucks in the cold, and it takes longer to charge, but realistically it’s not like you need to use your car 24/7. Leaving it for a few hours overnight charges it to full, and you can schedule defrosting or do it from the app so the car…

Surely depends on how cold it is? As well as amperage... In Sweden there were lot of reports of people being unable to charge with 230V 10A. Sure, you'd make sure to install a more powerful charger if necessary. But that requires you and everywhere else to be adapted for EVs. Which is a pain.

Is 10A common in Sweden? Around here, every basic socket is rated 230V 16A and even apartments typically have each phase 230V 25A. And then you can go to multiple phases.

(Funny thing, this is kind oversized for domestic applications and the driver behind it is that the law says you pay fee based on maximum amperage of your connection, so electricity companies refuse to install anything smaller than 25A and give everyone they can three-phase so they make more money.)

Also, how adapting to EVs is a huge pain but LITERALLY DESTROYING THE WORLD THROUGH CLIMATE CHANGE is not, I don't get it.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#435

Post by rad_gruchalski »

jws wrote: post #73
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

You have a garage. Those who don’t have a garage freeze their asses off in howling winds every second day while plugging the car into an outdoor charger.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#436

Post by buran77 »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #355
bigcloud1299 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee that you don’t own a all Electric V. I own 2018 model S and I concur with the Op of this thread that’s the case. Charging is a huge pain in cold weather. I have insulated my garage doors and am able to keep the temp at around 45 in cold winters ( I am in Redmond).

A 240V charger, as parent commenter said, more than makes up for whatever losses are inherent in heating the car and battery. I have an uncovered space and it’s fine . Yeah, the battery sucks in the cold, and it takes longer to charge, but realistically it’s not like you need to use your car 24/7. Leaving it for a few hours overnight charges it to full, and you can schedule defrosting or do it from the app so the car…

You're hand waving away a lot of things here. People have the expectation of convenience and the current standard is whatever any regular car can do. When things fall short it can be a major inconvenience or even a deal breaker.

> It’s far from “a huge pain”.

You name "a huge pain" and someone will disagree. Not having a car at all is far from a huge pain but you still have one, even at a significant price.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#437

Post by inferiorhuman »

Auracle wrote: post #241
8note wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like somebody who's never had to plug your car in at night to make sure that it'll start in the morning. ICE cars still need electricity to start

Eh. I’ve found with modern cars they can still start at -30f just fine. At least, mine can. My first car? I had to constantly give it gas for a while even once it started. People gave me funny looks when I was essentially revving my engine like I was showing off in my ‘88 Grand Marquis at stop signs in the year 2005.

Eh?

A gasoline powered car will struggle in the cold because:

- the battery used to spin the engine is going to have less capacity in the cold - the engine oil is thicker and requiring more energy to spin the engine - gasoline won't atomize as well when it's being sprayed into a cold environment (this is why your engine runs richer right after a cold start)

A diesel powered car will struggle because:

- the temperature of the engine may be too low to allow ignition - the battery used to spin the engine is going to have less capacity in the cold - the engine oil is thicker and requiring more energy to spin the engine - the devices used to heat the engine (glow plugs or intake heaters) require plenty of electricity - the fuel itself may turn into gel (although I think most places in the US only ever sell #2 diesel year-round) - the engine itself may not stay warm enough to run especially if you're also trying to pull heat out into the cabin

None of that's changed dramatically in the past 40 years although engine management has gotten better.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#438

Post by baeaz »

Vecr wrote: post #301
acdha wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities but considering that cars spend 95% of the day parked and most people are not driving hundreds of miles per day, it seems likely that the combination of charging points at parking garages and similar structures, homes, streetlights, etc. is going to reach a level where most people can charge more than they need to. In fact, since solar has such massive daylig…

If someone actually believes in democracy, they should try to get politicians to agree with the statement "cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities" on the record. In the US, almost every single one would dodge the question or outright disagree. Even the ones not running for re-election don't want to ruin their and their party's reputation.

Given that practically every family has at least one car, I don't see how this is useful.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#439

Post by inferiorhuman »

Phlarp wrote: post #382
KMag wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The weight of the battery pack is great for traction in warm / dry conditions, but when driving on ice that weight is just momentum sending you sliding into snow banks. Not necessarily. In Minnesota, people often put sandbags in trunks/truck beds to get better traction in Winter. Also, one has to be careful when following semi tractor-trailers, as in some Winter conditions, they actually have a shorter stopping dis…

Putting a pair of sandbags in the back-end of an unloaded rear wheel drive pickup is not the same thing as driving a 9000 lb sedan.

  Putting a pair of sandbags in the back-end of an unloaded rear wheel
  drive pickup is not the same thing as driving a 9000 lb sedan.
A Model S weighs less than half of that.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#440

Post by chess_buster »

akmarinov wrote: post #138
cwalv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

To be honest, we had 220V in the Garage since I was born about 40 years ago.
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