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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That makes absolutely no difference at all. That would be very surprising if it were true, given the very large effect density altitude has on airplane performance (engine and wing).

It's gonna make some difference, but air resistance goes with square of speed and the change in density due to temperature isn't that large.

It’s about -3% change in drag force per +10°C change in temp.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#262
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they trying to destroy your neighborhood or simply stop subsidizing it? Suburban living costs more and a lot of those costs are paid by the cities they’re near but don’t contribute much to economically.

I'm an urban living fan, but do you have a source for that claim? It would be a wonderful argument to make!

That's the basic premise made by StongTowns.org. It's hard to pick a single post to start but the one about Layfayette, Louisiana is a good case study and a good place to dive in, imo.

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#263
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely.

I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving. I want to see your new electric car driving in this circumstances the 100km I had to drive.

And please note, 2035 means 13 years in the future. I don't doubt that the infrastructure for electric cars can work in 100 years...but what's with 13?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#264
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they trying to destroy your neighborhood or simply stop subsidizing it? Suburban living costs more and a lot of those costs are paid by the cities they’re near but don’t contribute much to economically.

I'm an urban living fan, but do you have a source for that claim? It would be a wonderful argument to make!

The costs? Basically it comes down to things like roads, water, sewer, etc. being amortized over fewer people:

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-publ...

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/2/5/suburban-infras...

Re: costs to cities, mostly focused on the extensive roadworks to serve solo car commuters - those are expensive and converted a lot of neighborhoods into something which consumes but does not generate tax income, and things like parking don’t generate much income, and all of that comes at a hefty cost to health & quality of life.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage. Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

True, with an ICE car you only need to worry about things constantly and randomly breaking down or wearing out and the fuel prices bankrupting you.

Disclaimer: I never owned a Tesla and only ever drove ICE.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#266
post #116
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

Hey, my apartment in Central California doesn't have microwave (although its a good apartment).

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#267
post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

That's a project that will take generations. "Rebuild all the cities". Ok.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#268
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without taking sides about the actual suburbs vs. cities here (you may be right that suburbs are great), the tone of the comment is very "I have this now, thus I must be allowed to have it forever regardless of the consequences". If you had slaves, and other people didn't have slaves, it wouldn't be very 21st-century to be arguing that "so I choose to have slaves, but I don't try to make other people have slaves. You…

People have the right to be free, which slavery infringes upon. Land doesn't have any rights, so suburbs can't infringe upon them. As for this: > I don't see how suburbs are incompatible with GP's proposal Look at the last line of that post: > Death to the suburban experiment.

Fair point regarding the last line. Overlooked that somehow.

> Land doesn't have any rights, so suburbs can't infringe upon them.

Slaves didn't have rights back then either, as I understand it. Can't infringe upon those!

More seriously, I haven't done the math myself but given concepts like "earth day" it doesn't seem like we're doing too well in providing for everyone, and that's with a large majority of people not living in the usa suburb style. It only seems fair if everyone (eight billion people) were given the opportunity to achieve an equal standard of living if they are willing to work for it; the kind of thing one would ideally codify in a binding human rights statement (e.g., ECHR). Under the ideal of giving everyone equal opportunities, freely taking however much land you fancy would almost certainly infringe on others' basic rights.

But anyway that's just about land use. I don't know that the amount of land taken is the restrictive factor here, it's probably more about how you get to and from your daily needs (transportation and heating being big factors in personal energy use). The fundamental limitation usually boils down to energy in the end (could live in the Sahara if you build a lot of AC and desalination and pipes to get it there -- spaceship earth style). Currently, we don't have a lot of energy available in a way that maximizes total happiness, considering global warming. We might have to take it easy with personal consumption rates until we do have the energy.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#269
post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

I like living in suburbs better than cities, so I choose to live in a suburb, but I don't try to keep other people from being able to live in cities. You like cities and not suburbs. Why can't you be content to just live in a city yourself? Why do you need to make it your mission to destroy my neighborhood?

Because the vast swaths of suburbs around cities actively contribute to a lower quality of life for those who live in the city themselves. Not only do cities have to provide car infrastructure for those who commute into the city, which contributes to traffic, noise pollution, emissions, and particulates that fly into the air or run off into the rivers, but the cities also subsidize the cost the suburbs incur.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#270
post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

Counterpoint: moved to the burbs after 40 years of city life (Europe and NYC) and I absolutely love it. Cars work absolutely great and with the decreased need to be physically in the office, suburban life is better and more convenient than ever.

I feel like every post that shits on the suburbs should include how many kids do you have, for transparency. No family or kids, of course the city is better for you.

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