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California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

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Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>High frequency busses in the interim with rail transit is the real solution. Mass transit systems only really work in high density areas. This is because the time taken to stop (pasengers on and off) then go is high. So the distance matters less than the number of stops. To be appealing your nearest stop should be within a half mile or so of your house. If a bus can carry 60 people, and only one or two people get i…

In suburban areas, light rail can work quite well. Although you have to wait longer because of stops, the trains can also move much faster than cars--existing trains are fairly slow, but introducing higher-speed trains would make them competitive with cars. In rural areas, though, your point stands. For adults traveling alone, though, lightweight electronic vehicles like e-bikes may be better than electric cars. Ulti…

It can work for long commutes when you have park and rides, but you still need cars to go the last 1-5 miles. Still nice to take a train the bulk of a long commute into a city core.

A lot of people who think trains and buses can do it all are young and have never had kids. Nothing about the suburbs made sense to me before kids. Everything makes sense after kids.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon’s claim of “humans drive with eyes so a car can drive with cameras” is naive. Humans drive with our eyes and we’re pretty bad at driving. We should want systems with redundancy and using multiple modalities so that a car crash isn’t an accident, it’s a choice.

> Humans drive with our eyes and we’re pretty bad at driving. I disagree that humans are bad at driving. Let me ask you this, how many miles would a fully autonomous self-driving car need to drive without a fatality for you to be able to reasonably claim that it's statistically a better driver than a human? And feel free just to round to an order of magnitude here. 2.75 x 10^z In 2013 in the US there were 32,719 cras…

There are lots of leading indicators that a car (or human) is bad at driving, so you don’t actually have to wait for an accident to know if you are on the right path.

E.g. keeping track of near misses / interventions can get you data points much more quickly.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#513

Should have happened sooner. I love my Model Y. It's the most fun car I've ever owned. It's also the most comfortable on long road trips and I can sleep in it in climate-controlled comfort without generating a gas that could kill me. I leave the house every morning with a full tank and never have to stop at a gas station. And my cost per mile is 1/4 what it was with an ICE car. I just wish Tesla would focus on this s…

I also love my Model Y. It’s by far the best car I’ve ever owned or driven. But the software has stagnated in favor of “FSD” beta releases. Autopilot on freeways is great. I use it all the time and it works. I wish Tesla would focus on getting that to a level 3-type system - something where I can take my hands off the wheel and just be ready to take over after 10-15 seconds. It feels close enough that it could be don…

> Elon’s claim of “humans drive with eyes so a car can drive with cameras” is naive.

Specially because we don't drive with eyes only, we use at least our ears too for hearing unusual noises and the balance sense for detecting vibrations, changes on road surface, and to get feedback about orientation changes.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#514

Mainstream full self driving would just create massive traffic and gridlock - pointless in the end. The induced demand would outweigh the benefits. States are better off acknowledging that sprawling car dependent cities are not sustainable. High frequency busses in the interim with rail transit is the real solution. Current self driving technology plus some key infrastructure changes with dedicated bus lanes and prio…

I think Elon's biggest problem with mass transit is just that he doesn't like the masses. As he once tweeted: > I think public transport is painful. It sucks. Why do you want to get on something with a lot of other people[...]And there’s like a bunch of random strangers, one of who might be a serial killer, OK, great. Not the only problem he cites there (note the "[...]"). But I'm pretty sure there's a reason it's th…

This is not something specific to Elon. Anyone who’s regularly ridden the 38 “Geary” in San Francisco knows there will be a minority of riders who make the experience, at the very least, annoying, if not scarring. Riding home every day with a screeching schizophrenic is not top on my list of preferred activities, nor anyone’s.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on an ICE car when I'm confronted with, say, the same clunky dashboard nav system, it seems more frustrating that, year after year, it's still just as bad I drove my first ICE vehicle for almost 10 years. The driver experience was exactly the same in year 9 as it was in year 1. The replacement is currently in year 7. It's the same as it was in its year 1. Q: Why would that be frustrating?

Did you have a touch screen? Or a screen that controls any part of the car? The frustration is that those tend to have awful interfaces, with extra frustration that they could be fixed but don't get fixed. If you had normal buttons then there wasn't anything to get annoyed with in this way in the first place, so it didn't need updates.

Given that this is a fairly common sentiment, it’s a bit wild to me that SpaceX uses touch screens to control almost everything in their Dragon capsule.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning a car is massively expensive at a personal level… Purchase cost, depreciation, fuel, maintenance, space to store it. Minimum a few hundred $/month for an “asset” that sits idle most of the day. Owning cars is massively expensive at a societal level… Storage space - so much asphalt for parking (both at destinations and at home). Pollution - production/raw materials, emissions during use, eventually disposal. In…

I don't know about the rural-need-car argument. In Switzerland even little villages have rail connections. Imo it's about planning and values. America just doesn't value spending on general welfare. We'd prefer to have wealth hoarded behind closed gates it seems.

Uh, even my state (VA) is 3x the size of Switzerland. And we’re dwarfed by all the larger states west of the Mississippi.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#517

I don’t understand why this requires a California law to address? Why hasn’t the FTC intervened? A quick search reveals that it is ‘on their radar’ as of this past June, but as other commenters have pointed out, the claim has been used for more than 5 years. Perhaps they need a more sensitive radar. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

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If it was simply ‘self-driving’ there would seem to be more wiggle room, but the inclusion of ‘full’ to the claim makes a much more specific promise of the degree of autonomy drivers should expect. Adding more specific detailed language elsewhere should explain a marketing claim, not contradict it.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#518
post #433
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it goes both ways and we won’t know for sure until it comes to fruition. Personally, I hate owning vehicles and desperately want a self-driving taxi service that I can order via an app to get me and my family around.

> Personally, I hate owning vehicles and desperately want a self-driving taxi service that I can order via an app to get me and my family around. This future sounds great until you consider what it really means to let “someone else” become the arbiter of you being able to get around. If I have a car in my driveway, I can make sure it is charged/fueled for whenever I need it and I can just turn it on and go. Compare t…

I've thought about this: if all transport is public transport, then how much is our physical freedom limited?

Yes, bikes and other things may exist, but if all high-powered transport is outside of our control, how much control do we have over our movements?

That being said, I think a lot of people in the US purchase cars through auto loans, and those loans while not physically limiting one's day-to-day mobility, can restrict one's job mobility. Maybe it only applies to certain economic classes, yet I imagine some people may be afraid to leave their job or lose their job because if they do, they lose their car and therefore lose their ability to move. And the safety net for physical movement in some places if one doesn't have a car is close to zero.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber predicted it was just a few years away in 2016.[1] Google's Sergey Brin predicted driverless cars by 2017.[2] BMW predicted we'd have driverless cars by 2020.[3] Supposedly sober industry analysts predicted 2019.[4] It's also worth pointing out that many of Elon's predictions were not predictions of a finished product, but rather predicting when Tesla would have a system "capable" of self driving, not necessaril…

Uh huh. And did they take money from customers with the promise of full self-driving being just around the corner? Did they take money from customers for a product making the specific claim that it has the "hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver": https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... Musk will continue to lie abou…

> Musk will continue to lie about it because he thinks that without full self-driving Tesla is worth basically zero

Lots of people who buy Teslas don’t care about the self driving at all. They want the best-designed, best-driving, fastest electric cars on the road with the best charging network.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#520
> Although Tesla has never claimed that FSD was fully autonomous

...this seems like a weird argument, insofar as the very name "Full Self-Driving" is making that claim in plain language.

You can do a lot with an asterisk after a marketing claim, but "Full Self-Driving: is not yet fully self-driving" seems like a stretch.

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