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California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

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Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#481

Post by Lendal »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #307

Should have happened sooner. I love my Model Y. It's the most fun car I've ever owned. It's also the most comfortable on long road trips and I can sleep in it in climate-controlled comfort without generating a gas that could kill me. I leave the house every morning with a full tank and never have to stop at a gas station. And my cost per mile is 1/4 what it was with an ICE car. I just wish Tesla would focus on this s…

It's almost as if someone invented an amazing new technology that really works, then some VC came along, bought it out, (er, I mean invested!) ran the original inventors out of town and bolted on some unasked-for snake oil. Now, you can still buy the still-awesome product (mostly made in America too) but you have to take all the VC crap along with it. Welcome to America!

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#482

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

cycomanic wrote: post #469
fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average earnings (after expenses) of a ride share driver is very roughly $10/hour. If you assume a self-driving car can get 2000 hours of use a year (which seems reasonably conservative), then the self-driving car saves $20k in labor costs per year. Although self-driving tech will be expensive in the beginning, the price will likely at some point decline to be far below $20k/year. Labor is about half of the cost of a…

But price is said due to supply and demand not the cost of providing the service. So why do you think taxi fares will go down?

Because labor is half of supply, in this case.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#483

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

miketery wrote: post #452
dagmx wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to one of your points, The Tesla auto park is legitimately awful. https://youtu.be/nsb2XBAIWyA Every time we try it for a spot to reverse into, the linear regression it must be doing is so apparent. It violently tries to turn left and right rapidly trying to straighten itself. It works better for parallel spots but often gives up half way because it made a bad angle choice. We’ve tried it in various models in…

This is kind of scary, it seems they’re trying to use black box Ai/ml for parking where a simple PID controller would do excellent given an input of a target box and current location.

Indeed. Why do Tesla go for ML to poorly solve problems long solved by well understood PID controllers?

The cynical in me feels this is to do with employees at Tesla want to work with new and shiny ML instead of old boring PID tech for the sake of "resume driven engineering".

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#484

Post by notahacker »

logifail wrote: post #463
wpietri wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the implication is that the current software is just not very good. It's obviously fine for techie early adopters, who like the new shiny and are willing to put up with a lot. But it sounds like from the perspective of a normal person's sustained daily use, the gee-whiz feelings wear off and leave you with annoying issues. But it could also partly be a case of differing expectations. The web has trained us al…

> on an ICE car when I'm confronted with, say, the same clunky dashboard nav system, it seems more frustrating that, year after year, it's still just as bad I drove my first ICE vehicle for almost 10 years. The driver experience was exactly the same in year 9 as it was in year 1. The replacement is currently in year 7. It's the same as it was in its year 1. Q: Why would that be frustrating?

It's just not as much fun when you're not renting your UX so next year could bring you better collision avoidance or require you to pay for an upgrade to continue to be able to recline your seats

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#485

Post by thrashh »

CSMastermind wrote: post #476
janalsncm wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon’s claim of “humans drive with eyes so a car can drive with cameras” is naive. Humans drive with our eyes and we’re pretty bad at driving. We should want systems with redundancy and using multiple modalities so that a car crash isn’t an accident, it’s a choice.

> Humans drive with our eyes and we’re pretty bad at driving. I disagree that humans are bad at driving. Let me ask you this, how many miles would a fully autonomous self-driving car need to drive without a fatality for you to be able to reasonably claim that it's statistically a better driver than a human? And feel free just to round to an order of magnitude here. 2.75 x 10^z In 2013 in the US there were 32,719 cras…

Not all humans are the same either

Some people can flawlessly do stunts with their car after driving for a few years and have a perfect driving record

Others make you shake in fear every time you sit with them as you see them fail to notice other cars when they change lanes, despite driving for 10 years

It’s a bell curve and I think the median is better than current car driving AI, even with LIDAR, can achieve

But combo AI (or just safety features) with humans and I think it shifts the bell curve up a lot

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#486

Post by ninkendo »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #268
jimkleiber wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main costs is labor. Another is fuel. Get rid of labor and if fuel gets cheaper (I assume electricity, because it can come from more sources than gas, will get cheaper over time), then I assume these services will be cheaper. Plus, car ownership is not that cheap either.

Car ownership is a lot cheaper than Uber. It’s not even a question. You could buy an overpriced car that you can’t afford with a high interest rate and it would still be much cheaper. I think you need to go back to first principles on this one.

Let’s say I use a car once a year.

Just how would owning a car be cheaper than getting an uber that one time per year?

Now do the same math for driving 5 times a day.

Do you see why you can’t just say “Car ownership is cheaper than Uber”, unqualified?

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#487

Post by twblalock »

kzrdude wrote: post #459
twblalock wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just think about it - what happens when everyone has a self driving car? All of those cars that are otherwise parked are now on the road. Why would that be the case? I would keep my self-driving car the same place I keep my normal car now. Why would it be driving around when I’m not in it? That would waste electricity. It would drive me somewhere, park, and wait — just like I do with my current car.

When you have a self driving car, it should be able to pick you up--driverless-- at the airport when you are coming home from a trip. But logistically that's a challenge for the airports.

If it wasn’t my own car doing that, it would be a friend using their own car, or a taxi, so I doubt I’d be increasing the total number of cars on the road.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#488

Post by m463 »

dagmx wrote: post #444
rzimmerman wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also love my Model Y. It’s by far the best car I’ve ever owned or driven. But the software has stagnated in favor of “FSD” beta releases. Autopilot on freeways is great. I use it all the time and it works. I wish Tesla would focus on getting that to a level 3-type system - something where I can take my hands off the wheel and just be ready to take over after 10-15 seconds. It feels close enough that it could be don…

To add to one of your points, The Tesla auto park is legitimately awful. https://youtu.be/nsb2XBAIWyA Every time we try it for a spot to reverse into, the linear regression it must be doing is so apparent. It violently tries to turn left and right rapidly trying to straighten itself. It works better for parallel spots but often gives up half way because it made a bad angle choice. We’ve tried it in various models in…

I think parallel parking works wonderfully (only know autopilot 1)

Remember it uses sonar to park, not the lines.

Strangely, I've never tried backing into a spot - I guess because the backup camera is great at seeing the lines and I can back in quickly.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#489

Post by bombcar »

CSMastermind wrote: post #476
janalsncm wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon’s claim of “humans drive with eyes so a car can drive with cameras” is naive. Humans drive with our eyes and we’re pretty bad at driving. We should want systems with redundancy and using multiple modalities so that a car crash isn’t an accident, it’s a choice.

> Humans drive with our eyes and we’re pretty bad at driving. I disagree that humans are bad at driving. Let me ask you this, how many miles would a fully autonomous self-driving car need to drive without a fatality for you to be able to reasonably claim that it's statistically a better driver than a human? And feel free just to round to an order of magnitude here. 2.75 x 10^z In 2013 in the US there were 32,719 cras…

It wouldn’t have to do that much driving flawlessly - many crashes occur without there being a fatality.

Re: California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD

#490

Post by kwhitefoot »

dagmx wrote: post #444
rzimmerman wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also love my Model Y. It’s by far the best car I’ve ever owned or driven. But the software has stagnated in favor of “FSD” beta releases. Autopilot on freeways is great. I use it all the time and it works. I wish Tesla would focus on getting that to a level 3-type system - something where I can take my hands off the wheel and just be ready to take over after 10-15 seconds. It feels close enough that it could be don…

To add to one of your points, The Tesla auto park is legitimately awful. https://youtu.be/nsb2XBAIWyA Every time we try it for a spot to reverse into, the linear regression it must be doing is so apparent. It violently tries to turn left and right rapidly trying to straighten itself. It works better for parallel spots but often gives up half way because it made a bad angle choice. We’ve tried it in various models in…

That's odd. My 2015 Model S auto-parks very well, faster and neater than I can do it myself.
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