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The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

evanmiller.org

31–40 of 186 posts

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#31
> it is possible to be a productive and well-compensated programmer — even a first-rate hacker — without any knowledge of science or math. But I think that most programmers who are serious about what they do should know calculus (the real kind), linear algebra, and statistics

Not surprisingly, those happen to be branches of mathematics with lots of applications. I would argue that programmers should know them, but only superficially, as in having an understanding of what mathematical properties mean in real life and in knowing how to compute them, without having to understand why and when those computation steps work.

For example, when computing a double integral, changing integration order is only allowed under specific circumstances (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_integration_(calculus...).

In a math exam, you’d have to show these properties hold before switching integration order. If you do that well and then make a slight mistake in your subsequent computation, you get a tiny point deduction, but still easily pass your exam.

In physics, you’d just switch order, compute the answer, check it with reality, and if it doesn’t look wrong, declare you solved the problem (that may be slightly exaggerated, ;-)).

The check with reality is important even if switching integration order is OK because, if you make a slight mistake in your subsequent computation and design a bridge based on the result, people may die.

The point is: for physicists, it’s not the journey that’s the reward, but the destination. And yes, ideally they’ll know when their tool won’t work, but physicists rarely encounter the weird constructs that mathematicians consider in their job such as functions that are continuous, but nowhere differentiable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weierstrass_function), or discontinuous at every rational number, but continuous elsewhere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomae%27s_function), and there’s always the reality check at the end that will catch (most) errors.

> Rather than viewing mathematics as an advanced tool reserved for extremely specialized computer applications, Fortran-school programmers view the computer as an advanced tool for doing mathematics.

Here, I’d say Fortran-school programmers view the computer as an advanced tool for doing computations. That’s not surprising; Fortran-style programmers are physicists. They care about the result. Mathematicians don’t, at least not in the sense of something that’s useful in the physical world.

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#33
post #9

In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…

I learned Haskell before I learned to write proofs. And yes it did help.

But no I don't think experience doing boot camps and churning out React apps and gluing together APIs would help with learning mathematics.

Go learn a language that seriously challenges you like Haskell.

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#35
post #9

In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…

If I may, would like to add that the statement is not even wrong …

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#36
post #9

In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…

What do you mean by “learning Mathematics?” It should be notes that significantly less than 50% of the US population even has to learn calculus so getting into the stuff that most people would consider pretty advanced is not so hard, right? I’d be curious what people’s coolest math tricks are that they’ve used at work. I did like one Taylor Series expansion and felt cool for a week.

Never mind calculus; a non-trivial fraction of the U.S. population has trouble learning elementary algebra. The fact that the U.S. K-12 educational system is notoriously a failure compared to otherwise similar countries should not be used to draw inferences about the inherent worth of any particular subject. Not least because that same system also often fails to teach functional literacy, or any amount of basic facts about society that may elsewhere be assumed to be known by any educated adult.

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#37
post #9

In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…

I disagree because Math is programming. All those symbols you see map to a set of steps (a program.). It’s just knowing what subroutine every esoteric symbol stands for that’s hard.

I will agree it’s been more difficult learning math than programming for myself as well: but that’s because math is geared and targeted for people who like doing symbolic logic by hand. Math people think we’re a level below them (we are in some ways from a working perspective) so they tend to write off complaints like this as us just wanting to make math more like programming.

The fact we don’t have a nice and intuitive way of writing math via a keyboard is proof that these two fields, which should be tightly coupled, are not on the same page.

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#38
post #22
post #9

In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…

I think Yegge is actually completely correct. I started to learn to program when I was 14, and once I understood the concept of functions, I found it much easier to do my calculus and physics work. Fundamentally I understood how to break things down into computable steps. Granted, I think get the impression we might be overloading the term "mathematics".

I grew up programming (from 10 or so) and couldn’t agree more. I have almost no formal education yet I’ve picked up enough math to do ML and (mediocre) cryptography and keep up with people who have scary sounding degrees. in the process I’ve fallen in love with math and think as programmers we haven’t been meeting mathematicians half way.

Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “learning Mathematics?” It should be notes that significantly less than 50% of the US population even has to learn calculus so getting into the stuff that most people would consider pretty advanced is not so hard, right? I’d be curious what people’s coolest math tricks are that they’ve used at work. I did like one Taylor Series expansion and felt cool for a week.

Never mind calculus; a non-trivial fraction of the U.S. population has trouble learning elementary algebra . The fact that the U.S. K-12 educational system is notoriously a failure compared to otherwise similar countries should not be used to draw inferences about the inherent worth of any particular subject. Not least because that same system also often fails to teach functional literacy, or any amount of basic fact…

Then why do all New England states outcompete most European countries?

Why is most STEM research produced in Eastern Europe, the US, or China?

This really depends on what metrics you are using and has infinite room for gaming.

US undergrads (both native and foreign born) absolutely crush all of these nondescript places you are suggesting are better, and graduate programs make the gap even wider.

A non trivial fraction of those are educated K12 in the US system.

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