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Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

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Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#131

Post by asveikau »

sfpotter wrote: post #117
asveikau wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or how to mitigate some of the security downfalls. I think I'd go further, there are places where it advocates downright unsafe practices. Eg. It's been a long time, but I thought I remember it introducing gets() unironically, without any caveat. For those that do not know, there is no safe use of that interface possible.

If you're just beginning with C, it doesn't matter. If anything, it's better to be exposed to these unsafe practices and make mistakes with them in the very safe environment of your own home, where absolutely no one cares what you're doing. K&R C is an excellent learning resource primarily because it's extremely strong pedagogically. Read K&R and then move onto something else later when you're done with it. If you ev…

I've taught C at university level, and used to give crash courses to new college grads and interns in industry.

The one thing I impart the most from the beginning is to develop good instincts for secure interfaces. You should be able to look at function signatures and see alarm bells for unsafe practices. For someone skilled at C this is second nature, you can see bad practices from a distance, often at the function signature level.

I think it would be unwise to neglect this.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#132

Post by blaerk »

Excellent choice! I started off 2022 with learning c and it’s a lot of fun!

As some other commenters, I really recommend Modern C by Jens Gustedt.

If you’re on Linux you can use man pages for most or all of the c stdlib, it’s a really convenient way to check up on stuff directly from the terminal, less tempting to rabbit hole into something else while in a browser.

I started contributing to a really small open source project, it was less daunting than a large well written, well formatted project and you get to run into “accidents”, figure them out, fixing them, learning from the experience. I realise this is a matter of personal preference, for me it’s a nice learning experience.

Also having (or making) friends who knows c is really helpful.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#133

Post by galangalalgol »

sfpotter wrote: post #116
galangalalgol wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any recommendations on static analyzers, unit tests, coverage for c? Can clang tidy give hints about modern c they way it does about modern c++?

Don't bother with this stuff (or with "modern C") if you're just beginning to learn the language. You don't need it for small programs. No one is going to yell at you if your first effort isn't perfect. And no one is going to yell at you if you read the "wrong" book, or try things out in the "wrong" order. Pick any learning resource and get started now. You'll probably get distracted and move on to something else. Co…

Well C was my second language. I learned it on an amiga 500. But I quickly transitioned to a 386 (yes i know, a downgrade) but my dad put turbo c++ on it and I never wrote much ansi c after that. A bit for odd embedded targets, but mostly c++ my whole career. So I can write old fashioned c, and I don't start new projects in c, but writing c abi shims for c++ libraries or reading modern c is something I do with some frequency. Learning it would be fun maybe as I've never really used c99 or newer for anything.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#134

Post by shortlived »

andreygrehov wrote: post #63

I'm not a C engineer, but I think I have an interesting recommendation to consider. Since you are already familiar with other languages, you obviously don't need to know the basics of C. The basics are the same everywhere. Instead, you'd likely want to build that mindset on how to build good software with C. I suggest you read other people's code and try to deep dive into the whys. I heard Redis is a well-written sof…

FYI, missing a second dash

  git log -–reverse

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#135

Post by woodruffw »

torstenvl wrote: post #128
woodruffw wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a definition of "proprietary" used anywhere in the open source community. Private direction (which Rust notably does not have) does not somehow erase the fact that both are permissively licensed and have open codebases that you can use and contribute to to your heart's content. I don't even know what you're referring to with IP law. The projects' names and logos?

> both are permissively licensed No, the code of the implementation is permissively licensed. Do I really have to explain, on HN of all places, the importance of distinguishing between implementation and interface?

This is incorrect on multiple levels: there is no organization that has "exclusive" control over Go, much less Rust. There's a company (Google) that made Go, but they have no control over the source code itself beyond the terms of the non-proprietary license they provide it under[1]. Even the things that Google does w/r/t Go are not even remotely controversial in the context of the definition of proprietary software, like CLAs. Linux has a CLA!

Comparing this to Borland or Microsoft is bizarre: Microsoft and Borland actually do have proprietary C compilers that they do not make publicly available in source code form. Those compilers in turn have all kinds of non-standard, proprietary extensions.

The one thing that sets C apart from Rust and Go is the presence of an official ISO standard. But this isn't material to the definition of "proprietary" in the open source world. And, well, that ISO standard is itself copyrighted.

[1]: https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/LICENSE

Edit: You shouldn't delete and re-write your comments. Here's the original comment I responded to:

> That's a dubious claim, and irrelevant besides. They are proprietary, in the standard meaning of the word, because a single private organization has exclusive control over each, but whatever word you choose to describe that is up to you.

> Google owns Go in a way that has never been true of Microsoft (or Borland or GNU or Apple...) when it comes to C.

Edit 2: For the edited comment: you're setting up a distinction that does not matter for programming languages that do not have formal specifications. There is no "interface" to distinguish against, and the claim that Rust (or Go, or Python, or any other language without an ISO spec) is tacitly reserving all rights to the design of the language itself is completely unsubstantiated.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#136

Post by phoehne »

I program in C professionally. It's a good language to learn how processors actually work. It's on the embedded side, where there are other options but either they're not mature (Rust) or were never really taken up (Ada). Embedded C it's just you and the hardware. It's a good way to learn about what's actually going on. Anything, like an Arduino or Arm cortex is great. Small warning about ESP32 boards - some are based on the Extensa cores, which means you need to use their compilers. Others are based on Risc V - do your research.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#137

Post by baby »

andreygrehov wrote: post #63

I'm not a C engineer, but I think I have an interesting recommendation to consider. Since you are already familiar with other languages, you obviously don't need to know the basics of C. The basics are the same everywhere. Instead, you'd likely want to build that mindset on how to build good software with C. I suggest you read other people's code and try to deep dive into the whys. I heard Redis is a well-written sof…

It's funny because I would never think that this is a good way to learn a codebase. Code changes completely through time, and early phases where nothing is set can be extremely messy and filled with constant refactorings. Commit messages are rarely good. I would rather try to learn a codebase looking at the latest state and the docs.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#138

Post by baby »

brezelgoring wrote: post #104
andreygrehov wrote: post #63

I'm not a C engineer, but I think I have an interesting recommendation to consider. Since you are already familiar with other languages, you obviously don't need to know the basics of C. The basics are the same everywhere. Instead, you'd likely want to build that mindset on how to build good software with C. I suggest you read other people's code and try to deep dive into the whys. I heard Redis is a well-written sof…

I've got a single digit number of contributions to projects that I like, mostly because of how daunting it is to familiarize oneself with a codebase, and this 'git log -reverse' trick seems incredible as an entry point to a new project. That being said, how do you feel about using this technique for repos with 2k+ commits? It seems unrealistic to read all of them, or am I being short-sighted here? I get demotivated j…

I'm not sure why GP's post is upvoted so much, IMO it's a bad way to learn. I would instead find an entry point, a self-contained task that doesn't touch a lot of the codebase that you can use to learn something. Then, as you get more comfortable with some part of the codebase you can expand your scope by looking at tasks that touch other things. In general reading code is 50% of the work, the other 50% is to play with the codebase or try to make changes to it and see what happens.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#139

Post by torstenvl »

woodruffw wrote: post #135
torstenvl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both are permissively licensed No, the code of the implementation is permissively licensed. Do I really have to explain, on HN of all places, the importance of distinguishing between implementation and interface?

This is incorrect on multiple levels: there is no organization that has "exclusive" control over Go, much less Rust. There's a company (Google) that made Go, but they have no control over the source code itself beyond the terms of the non-proprietary license they provide it under[1]. Even the things that Google does w/r/t Go are not even remotely controversial in the context of the definition of proprietary software,…

Your position that not having a standard is irrelevant for languages that don't have a standard is circular and bizarre.

The fact that you keep focusing on whether compilers are proprietary instead of whether Rust and Go are proprietary is starting to seem deliberately evasive. You're free to extol the virtues of open source software, and I agree with you, but it's utterly beside the point.

.rs is analogous to .doc. The "right" way to handle it is defined solely with respect to the reference implementation. I view that as a problem. You may disagree, and that's fine, but don't pretend this is a conversation about something else.

Re: Ask HN: Learn C in 2023?

#140

Post by tmtvl »

I am fond of Notes on Data Structures and Programming Techniques by James Aspnes: https://cs.yale.edu/homes/aspnes/classes/223/notes.html it has a short and sweet overview of C as well as a sections on problems with C. Another useful resource is Libc's info manual (in Emacs: C-h i m Libc), it's a well-formatted, clear reference.
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