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Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

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Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#161

Post by Archelaos »

seppel wrote: post #153
Archelaos wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very good advice, if you want to work in Germany. The general requirement to call oneself an engineer ("Ingenieur") is that a person has successfully completed a technical or scientific course of study at a German university or university of applied science with the duration of at least three years (full-time). Each German state has its own Engineer Law ("Ingenieurgesetz", IngG) for the details, which also in…

"Software Engineer" (without German translation) is used as an official job title by many German companies and the German linkedin is also full of people describing themselves as Software Engineers. This is the first time I hear such an objection.

From the German Wikipedia article on "Softwareentwickler":

My translation:

  The job title _software developer_ is not a protected job title in Germany and Austria.

  According to German law, the job title _software engineer_ may only be used by those who have successfully completed a technical degree. In Austria, the title of engineer can also be acquired through training at an HTL [Höhere Technische Lehranstalt, aprox.: Higher Technical College].
Original:

  Die Berufsbezeichnung _Softwareentwickler_ ist in Deutschland und Österreich keine geschützte Berufsbezeichnung.

  Die Berufsbezeichnung _Softwareingenieur_ darf nach deutschem Recht nur führen, wer ein technisches Studium mit Erfolg abgeschlossen hat. In Österreich kann der Ingenieurstitel auch durch die Ausbildung an einer HTL erworben werden.
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softwareentwickler#Berufsbezei... (in German)

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#162

Post by isitmadeofglass »

blintz wrote: post #99

I’m sure this article is right about some stuff, but man if it doesn’t make me sad to read. Software can be so exciting and fun, and this “careerist” perspective really sucks the joy out of it. If you’re looking for something that is kind of the opposite of this article: https://ferd.ca/the-little-printf.html .

> Software can be so exciting and fun, and this “careerist” perspective really sucks the joy out of it.

This reminds me of people arguing that scientists miss life’s beauty because they attempt to analysis it. You can enjoy the wonders of programming while still being mindful of your career progression, one does not preclude the other.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#163

Post by bqmjjx0kac »

bruce511 wrote: post #156
kodah wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a lot of programmers on here have probably heard of ColdFusion. Allaire (and Macromedia after they bought them) built one of the best IDEs back in the day. It was a strong competitor to Komodo.

ColdFusion is a global household name compared to what I use :)

Fine, keep your secrets.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#164

Post by 0x445442 »

NegatioN wrote: post #154
0x445442 wrote: post #20

“You’re not defined by your chosen software stack”… Boy this article is old isn’t it.

I don't understand why so many people seem to disagree with this point. If you're a specialist that's one thing, but a normal software stack should be generalizable? I got hired at all of my jobs so far without having major prior experience with the languages they use, and definitely not the frameworks.

Myself and others would consider your experience unique/not the norm. If you don’t mind me asking, what was the mechanism used to obtain those jobs? Was it primarily via networking or word of mouth, did you have some type of in? Or were your jobs with smaller employers or startups perhaps? Because in “The Enterprise” you’ll be disqualified straight away if you don’t have a certain amount of experience in a certain framework.

If I had a nickel for every time I’ve tried to explain that every new technology I’ve learned I’ve picked up on the job and specific framework experience is largely irrelevant, I’d be a rich man.

For example, I’ve been a software engineer for 27 years using tech stacks primarily within the Java ecosystem but encompassing many different frameworks, languages, databases etc. However, getting a job in a similar or even identical business domains but on the .NET tech stack would be next to impossible.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#165

Post by vore »

n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #160
vore wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond certification, licensed engineers are able to be held personally liable for negligence. Perhaps in a jurisdiction that only allows licensed engineers to call themselves engineers, you sound like someone who doesn't want the burden of the title, either.

Crouch down and lick the hands of the mafia organization that rules over you. May your chains sit lightly upon you. Enjoy your $90k terminal-career salary, geographic lock-in, and annual dues! At least you’re grateful for the right to call yourself the title that you already earned as an undergraduate! May this affliction never effect the software ENGINEERING industry!

I don't know how you have so much contempt over the people who ensure that everything from roads to physical infrastructure in the modern world function and enjoy spitting on them so much like this.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#166

Post by shaftoe »

bruce511 wrote: post #156
kodah wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a lot of programmers on here have probably heard of ColdFusion. Allaire (and Macromedia after they bought them) built one of the best IDEs back in the day. It was a strong competitor to Komodo.

ColdFusion is a global household name compared to what I use :)

PowerBuilder?

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#167

Post by n0tth3dro1ds »

vore wrote: post #165
n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crouch down and lick the hands of the mafia organization that rules over you. May your chains sit lightly upon you. Enjoy your $90k terminal-career salary, geographic lock-in, and annual dues! At least you’re grateful for the right to call yourself the title that you already earned as an undergraduate! May this affliction never effect the software ENGINEERING industry!

I don't know how you have so much contempt over the people who ensure that everything from roads to physical infrastructure in the modern world function and enjoy spitting on them so much like this.

I enjoy spitting on people that try to control my speech and my title. Misery loves company, and I will not join you in your misery.

I appreciate the bridges and roads, but I will not be told what title I can have just because YOUR industry (and tongue) has been captured.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#169

Post by Falkon1313 »

strict9 wrote: post #4

>You are not defined by your chosen software stack: I recently asked via Twitter what young engineers wanted to know about careers. Many asked how to know what programming language or stack to study. It doesn’t matter. There you go. I generally agree with this point and many others in the article but when looking for a position the tech stack of a company you're interviewing with matters a whole lot. Using some older…

For new greenfield projects, ok. Sure if you're at an agency cranking out brand new projects for a new customer every few months, you probably should be using stuff that's fairly up-to-date (but tried and mature, not bleeding edge).

However, if you're maintaining and developing a product that has been successfully growing its customer base for over a decade, then you don't want to be just spinning your wheels rewriting it over and over in the latest hot new fad. That wastes time and money, adds bugs, and annoys the customers.

Integrate new tech as you can, along the way to providing new value or getting new customers, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's perfectly fine to still have 'older/unfashionable' tech in the system that's still providing value and helping the sales team to close deals.

Re: Don't call yourself a programmer, and other career advice (2011)

#170

Post by seppel »

Archelaos wrote: post #161
seppel wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Software Engineer" (without German translation) is used as an official job title by many German companies and the German linkedin is also full of people describing themselves as Software Engineers. This is the first time I hear such an objection.

From the German Wikipedia article on "Softwareentwickler": My translation: The job title _software developer_ is not a protected job title in Germany and Austria. According to German law, the job title _software engineer_ may only be used by those who have successfully completed a technical degree. In Austria, the title of engineer can also be acquired through training at an HTL [Höhere Technische Lehranstalt, aprox.…

This all might very well be, but it does not reflect reality. Everybody calls himself Software Engineer, nobody calls himself Softwareingenieur.

As if Google Deutschland would not hire you as a Software Engineer (or SRE, ..) if you are missing a B.Sc. (or did it in a non-technical field) but everything else is perfect.

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