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FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

cnbc.com

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Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#351

Post by dredmorbius »

from wrote: post #287
dredmorbius wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as I'm all but entirely ignorant on the nature of large-figure, high-profile bond guarantees, do you (or anyone else) have references for what arrangements are typical?

Here are some high profile examples: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.44... (granted) https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.45... (denied) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/19/dominique-stra... (granted) https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.72... (denied) https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-colombo-mo... (granted)

At least the news items don't seem to discuss the mechanics of large-figure bail. Just establish instances of same.

(I've yet to dive into the PDFs.)

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#352

Post by moralestapia »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #309
berberous wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think bail norms probably vary by jurisdiction, etc., and your assumptions are not correct. My guess is he was not required to post full collateral, i.e. the only collateral here is the home, and then Sam, his parents, and two others posted essentially an unsecured guarantee for the full $250M, such that the government could recover up that amount from any assets held by any of those parties. While unsecured, note…

Cash bail means the accused pays the full bail amount and then gets it refunded after trial. A surety bond is basically a loan, through a bail bondsman. The bail bondsman has insurance in case you don't show up. A property bond is where the court gets a lien on your property. It sounds like this is what happened. https://money.howstuffworks.com/bail.htm

If that's the case, I'm very curious now about how two Stanford professors have at least 250M of property under their name. Perhaps it has been acquired in the past 4 or so years?

(Nothing against Stanford or professors, but academia pay peanuts and professors are usually very far from having a net worth of 9-10 figures, faaaaaaaar awaaaaaay)

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#353

Post by vkou »

dragonwriter wrote: post #302
csense wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so it's basically a bail bond, sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. What bondsman has $250M? Even if they did, why would they ever agree to this? Isn't getting $2M from a defendant on a bail bond less than even the interest you could probably get by just putting your $250M in, say, a Treasury bond over the same timeframe? For that matter, who's willing to bet $250M at 99-to-1 payout od…

> Okay so it's basically a bail bond, It is exactly a bond for bail, yes. > sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. No, there is no bondsman, the house is pledged directly to the court as security, his parents are additional surety for the $250M, and two other people are signing lesser bonds.

How exactly are his parents able to provide a surety for $250M? Do they have assets worth that much? If not, what's even the point of setting bail at $250M, if you only need to put up $4M in collateral?

Why does he get to do this, while someone with a $50,000 bail has to either put up the entire cash amount, or pay 10% in interest to a bondsman?

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#354

Post by dragonwriter »

jacquesm wrote: post #187
bena wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His parents now have a very good incentive to make sure he makes it to court. Once he makes it to court, that $250 million is paid back. The only thing the parents lose would be the interest payments on the loan from now until the court date.

I don't see them having that kind of money. They've been on the receiving end of the loot, it's essentially being allowed to leverage stolen money in order to finance the bail. Probably a judge doesn't care where it comes from and the bail bond people see the risk the way you do but it is a bit weird how a person suspected of crime at this level is allowed to await their day in court in freedom while others are immed…

> Probably a judge doesn't care where it comes

It doesn't cone from anywhere, its a promise to pay (with a very streamlined enforcement process), not a transfer of funds.

> and the bail bond people see the risk the way you do but it is

There are no “bail bonds people” here, unless you mean his parents and the other two sureties.

> it is a bit weird how a person suspected of crime at this level is allowed to await their day in court in freedom while others are immediately jailed because they didn't steal enough...

Money bail is a problematic system, sure, but it also doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#355

Post by DonHopkins »

wombatpm wrote: post #334
jacquesm wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also need to factor in the cost of plastic surgery and a new identity because I guarantee that if he 'just' skips to Dubai he won't be safe.

Nah, he just needs a haircut and decent wardrobe and no one would recognize him.

Plus a lot of shampoo or Dawn dishwashing detergent to wash out all that unctuous grease of effective altruism.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#356

Post by dragonwriter »

bena wrote: post #198
jacquesm wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see them having that kind of money. They've been on the receiving end of the loot, it's essentially being allowed to leverage stolen money in order to finance the bail. Probably a judge doesn't care where it comes from and the bail bond people see the risk the way you do but it is a bit weird how a person suspected of crime at this level is allowed to await their day in court in freedom while others are immed…

While it is likely true that they are likely leveraging assets acquired through his fraud to post bail, legally, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. The only way I can think of that they wouldn't be allowed is if the assets themselves were evidence in the crimes. And there's also the murky bit where the house itself wasn't fraudulently purchased, so if SBF is found guilty and he must pay back all the money…

> While it is likely true that they are likely leveraging assets acquired through his fraud to post bail

The only asset pledged is their Palo Alto house, their ownership of which I believe predates any alleged fraud of SBFs.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#357

Post by throwawaylinux »

moralestapia wrote: post #338
berberous wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think bail norms probably vary by jurisdiction, etc., and your assumptions are not correct. My guess is he was not required to post full collateral, i.e. the only collateral here is the home, and then Sam, his parents, and two others posted essentially an unsecured guarantee for the full $250M, such that the government could recover up that amount from any assets held by any of those parties. While unsecured, note…

Wait, so his bail is also "funny money"? Did he just FTXed the US government? LOL! Can't wait to read Levine's take on that.

No I think a lien or similar on a reasonable asset isn't really funny money.

No funnier than money itself really -- both are just bits of paper, backed by some guarantee the government will ensure their value.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#358

Post by svnt »

dragonwriter wrote: post #339
jjtheblunt wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks. who pays if he and the parents skip the US to somewhere from which they're not retrievable, and their house sells for a very presumptive 4 million?

SBF and his parents are on the hook for the full amount, two other sureties for lesser amounts. Personally fleeing doesn't really matter, because signing as a bail surety makes the court itself your agent for service of process, and default judgement is automatically available. (They do have to provide a copy of notices at the sureties last known address, but they don't have to actually serve notice on them.) Now, if…

Wouldn’t be totally out of character for him and his associates to misrepresent their financial standing.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#359

Post by svnt »

throwbigdata wrote: post #320
ravi-delia wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's up to the bond company no? Besides, the ankle bracelet is doing most of the work

Martha Stewart taught us how easy those are to take off!

I’ve got $100 that says his mom will face charges of her own before this is all over.

Re: FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried to be released on $250M bail

#360

Post by dmkolobov »

jrockway wrote: post #270
bigmattystyles wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what those in pretrial detention in Rikers do without internet, there only because they don’t have resources to bond out.

Your solution to needless suffering is to add more needless suffering?

Probably more like equity before the law.
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