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Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

torrentfreak.com

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Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#281
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Ron Paul's idea of freedom is to limit the role of the Federal Government by moving the legislative burden to each State. I can relate to the frustration that most Americans seem to have towards “Washington”, but would this really be in the best interest of the country? It's 2011, not 1787. The US is a vastly different country than it was when the idea of States Rights was created. Would the…

I do not think people or Ron Paul are talking about dismantling the federal government just limiting its powers. As the old saying goes, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". It is extremely dangerous to give power over to a few in central government and not distribute the power evenly to all of its participants as history has shown us. I fear governments that want more power in the name of providing…

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I did not mean to imply that Ron Paul or the average Libertarian intends to completely dismantle the Federal Government. However, it does seem that for many important issues, they wish to defer to the State level.

By “strong central government” I did not mean an economy centrally managed to the point at which Washington would be dictating how many widgets are made in a given month. I meant to imply a government that acts in the best interest of the population. Is it unreasonable to have minimum national standards for education, welfare, safety, and pollution? Every successful OECD country has these because they are necessary to prosper in the complex modern world. Would the US be more successful if we had policies such as centralized healthcare? Insurance is a HUGE burden on business in the US (not to mention on the individual – my wife was seriously ill earlier this year, even with insurance the total out of pocket cost will be ~$30,000. I can assure you that this burden is NOT helping my own attempts to start a business).

The freedom for people to tinker, fail, experiment and hopefully succeed comes from living in a society that educates, has some form of a social safety net, and provides reasonable economic legislation – i.e. the stable conditions necessary for capitalism to flourish. It is disingenuous to ignore the role that government has played in the success of the US and every other successful country.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#282
post #192
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's not even a libertarian: he's perfectly fine with States grossly abridging freedom, just not the federal government. Exactly this. He's not a libertarian, he's a states rights guy because he wants the power to do things like ban abortion in Texas. I think he has a very regressive political philosophy, that would empower local governments to discriminate against minorities, women, the disenfranchised, etc. Peopl…

>he's a states rights guy because he wants the power to do things like ban abortion in Texas. No, he's a states rights guy because he's a states rights guy, and he holds to that position even when states pass laws he disagrees with. Look, the two most decentralized first-world countries that I can think of are Canada and Switzerland. These are not draconian racist hellholes; they're considered some of the freest coun…

Switzerland is really not a model when it comes to racism. Until very recently, its government was blatantly organized along ethnic lines, with clear glass ceilings for some groups. Public opinion is very conservative on this matter, and most laws are enacted in clearly racist terms.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#283
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Full disclosure, I was an activist for Paul during 2008) I agree that Paul seems to have too narrow of a focus in his talk - he answers healthcare or fuel price questions half the time by saying these wouldn't happen with a gold standard / Fed, etc. I don't think he's thin in his views, but that (in typical libertarian fashion) he focuses just a bit too much on pure philosophy and not on pragmatism. I agree with the…

Philosophy/Ideals without practice/pragmatism/policy indicate he's merely a populist. When looking to who to vote for, identify where their money comes from. Then you can see how they might govern (e.g.: Obama got lots of money from the electorate-at-large, but a substantial amount from the financial sector - look where we are today).

Ideals sans Practice != Populist. There are plenty of populist revolutions and movements that have succeeded with the practice part - the French, Russian and most Communist roughly fit this mold initially - so "merely" is unfair to history.

The sad truth though is that nearly all of these fall back into hierarchies with a ruling class in control of the masses - which is probably some type of innate state of humanity of any size - unless social collaboration costs decrease significantly.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that is not ironic. He is not out to get a job, he is out to do what he believes in.

If it's not out for the job then why is he applying for it? Perhaps he is essentially a "protest vote" but there appears to be at least some chance that he could actually get elected?

He is not out to be president of the USA, he is out to do what he believes is right, and to do that he has to be POTUS. If that is his standpoint, then he is not ironic.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#285
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're inappropriately comparing the actions of candidates with people who have actual power. Neither George W. Bush nor John Yoo is running for office. Ron Paul is, and as a non-leadership representative, he's not in a position to affect policy in any significant way. He hasn't had the opportunity do things that Bush did. In order to assess him as a candidate, we have to understand how he acted given his opportuniti…

First of all, Ron Paul has significant power in congress. He is a member of two important committees and was instrumental, as a recent example, in strengthening the auditing standards for the Federal Reserve. He also has significant ideological influence on the Republican party, whether they like it or not. The rhetoric of the tea party movement was in many ways a direct attempt to co-opt Paul's support. He has used…

Ron Paul is to be commended for amending auditing standards for the Federal Reserve. However, he still hasn't had an important policy position as compared to his competitors for the presidency (excepting Bachmann). This is not a slight, but it should be acknowledged.

Now, I agree that he has had substantial power rhetorically. He has people who are passionate about what he says; his elucidations and opinions have influenced them, raised money, started conversations, and affected the political agenda. That is why it is disappointing that the very little power he has has been used inappropriately in certain instances. If he hired awful ghostwriters who spread stupidly racist material because he wasn't minding the store, then that is not a good sign that he has successfully managed the one area where he did have meaningful power.

Separately: I think you can critique Obama without mentioning things which seem to me untrue or at least misleading, which I think warrant correction:

- Obama has never (I believe) indicated that he's in favor of suspending habeas for U.S. citizens. There's misinformation around that NDAA does this; it does not. If you're thinking of something else, citation please.

- The U.S. torture debate has mostly revolved around waterboarding and unauthorized treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Bagram, etc. -- none of these are known to have happened under Obama. Some people believe that the Army Field Manual enables other forms of torture; Obama ordered a full review and asked for all torture to be taken out; if you think he missed things, that's a complex judgement call, not a simple issue.

- On several other fronts, like the drug war, Wall Street, etc., Obama has in fact applied the policies he stated--I'm not sure what makes you think he's broken promises or compromised his sincere beliefs in any of these areas. He's not a libertarian (except maybe in comparison to H. Clinton).

"Batting average" is a helpful term to use, but I think you're not using the right denominator: Paul hasn't been up the plate many times, whereas Obama, Gingrich, Romney, even Santorum have had a lot more opportunities to either accomplish something or screw up.

By the way, I'm not arguing generally that you should vote for Obama instead of Paul or whatever. But I am defending this newsletter "scandal" as a still relevant datapoint on Ron Paul. Not definitive, but relevant.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#287
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think people or Ron Paul are talking about dismantling the federal government just limiting its powers. As the old saying goes, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". It is extremely dangerous to give power over to a few in central government and not distribute the power evenly to all of its participants as history has shown us. I fear governments that want more power in the name of providing…

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I did not mean to imply that Ron Paul or the average Libertarian intends to completely dismantle the Federal Government. However, it does seem that for many important issues, they wish to defer to the State level. By “strong central government” I did not mean an economy centrally managed to the point at which Washington would be dictating how many widgets are made in a given m…

No one is down playing the role government has played in helping liberty flourish and prosper in certain conditions we just do not want it to be to become to big and threathening to freedom.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is well taken. But tech discussions can also lead to flame wars and HN seems to handle those rather well. I for one am interested in what this community thinks about many subjects. Including politics.

The site has guidelines. Please reread them.

It's confusing that you would direct posters to the guidelines while willfully disregarding the guidelines yourself, and call the guidelines "stupid."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3405357

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The site has guidelines. Please reread them.

It's confusing that you would direct posters to the guidelines while willfully disregarding the guidelines yourself, and call the guidelines "stupid." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3405357

The guideline I'm referring to here is not stupid.

The "don't comment about flagging" guideline is. It's meant to eliminate pointless arguments about what is or isn't germane to the site, much like how you're asked not to comment about being downvoted. But flags are invisible, and the number of people flagging is dwarfed by the number of people upvoting threads about Ron Paul's newsletters, so that the only way for it to leave the front page of the site (precipitously, if you didn't notice) is admin intervention.

Commenting on this post in the first place was stupid, since the story already got buried. I just felt bad for 'davidw, and I'm a nerd, so when someone says "I think HN is in fact a great place to talk about politics", it's hard for me to resist commenting that it's by charter not a place to talk about politics.

I'm answering in detail because you seem to follow my comments, and I don't want you to think I'm blowing you off. I'm not. I don't know you or have any problem with you personally.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing Paul's philosophy on the matter. His perspective on Federal government is that it's outside their jurisdiction to dictate morality. The constitution already states that all people are made equal; more laws are not necessary to enforce the issue. It's not marriages that he wants to abolish, but government-issued licences for it. The government should have no say whatsoever in defining what a mar…

You're still totally ignoring the point. Marriage can be made equitable. It can be done either via abolishing marriage licensing altogether, or via making marriage licenses equitable. Ron Paul believes it's better to keep marriage licensing discriminatory versus equalizing them. If this were a world where government entitlements were available only to white people, and Ron Paul took the position "I'm opposed to doing…

Marriage cannot be made equitable by the state so long as the definition of marriage differs from person to person.

Ron Paul believes that marriage licensing should simply not be. If there are no licenses, there is no discrimination. Problem solved.

It seems like you believe that everyone should know that gay marriage is ok, and that everyone should agree with your view on the matter, because it's clearly the right one.

There are people who will never agree with you, no matter the position. Your view on morality is your view, and that's all there is to it. It doesn't need justification, it simply is. Attempting to push this on other people by mandating in law is the worst form of bigotry.

That's what libertarianism is all about: freedom. Freedom for you, for me, for everyone, to do as they please, so long as it doesn't infringe on others rights. That's what Ron Paul is about: we all don't have to agree. We can believe opposite things, and still accept each other as we are.

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