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The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

city-journal.org

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Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#71

Post by ipaddr »

salad-fan wrote: post #38
ipaddr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think your kids are safer at public school from being molested? The stats would say you are safer at Catholic school where lines are less blurred and fewer teachers date students. But most likely to commit such an act is a parent or someone close to the child. Sending them to any school might be the safest option.

What makes you think Catholic school kids don’t have parents or other relatives? And are you trying to argue that the Catholic Church does not have a history of child molestation? Because the evidence seems pretty overwhelming to me.

I'm making the point the public system has a worse record on the subject. And any child is safer at school compared to your home.

It is shocking when a priest who takes vows then breaks them and commits such acts. It is less shocking to find out a teacher is going out with a student or texting naked photos. The first is forbidden and taboo and brings great shame by society. The second is at times encouraged by popular culture when the genders are reversed (female teacher / male student) but is a crime.

Your kid is more likely to have this happen outside of the Catholic system. Your feelings about the church overshadows reality be reenforces how much of a taboo a priest having any form of sexual pleasure is.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#72

Post by salad-fan »

kcplate wrote: post #66
salad-fan wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Catholic schools are not even remotely independent of the church despite what you seem to think, and therefore share the same systemic problems.

Never said they were independent, I said the conversation was about curriculum and not church scandals. Additionally, although I don’t have the statistics, it would not surprise me one bit if pound for pound, Catholic schools were indeed safer school options for the students than a public schools despite the scandals in the Catholic Church.

The commenter went beyond curriculum with this part of their comment (which has since been edited to remove the word “woke”, I might add):

> All of the politics and social justice, whatever you want to call is not part of the curriculum. I feel bad for people whose kids are forced into this nonsense.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#73

Post by salad-fan »

ipaddr wrote: post #71
salad-fan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think Catholic school kids don’t have parents or other relatives? And are you trying to argue that the Catholic Church does not have a history of child molestation? Because the evidence seems pretty overwhelming to me.

I'm making the point the public system has a worse record on the subject. And any child is safer at school compared to your home. It is shocking when a priest who takes vows then breaks them and commits such acts. It is less shocking to find out a teacher is going out with a student or texting naked photos. The first is forbidden and taboo and brings great shame by society. The second is at times encouraged by popula…

> I'm making the point the public system has a worse record on the subject.

Source?

> The second [teacher / student relationships] is at times encouraged by popular culture when the genders are reversed (female teacher / male student)

Do you have any evidence of this? I have never ever heard anyone seriously encouraging relationships between adults and minors, or between someone in a position of authority with someone they have authority over.

But then I only started school in the 1970s, so perhaps these things were acceptable in an earlier era or in a country that I’m unfamiliar with. Regardless, today such things are absolutely unacceptable, and as someone who currently works in high school sports I can state from first hand experience just how seriously such matters are taken.

> Your feelings about the church overshadows reality be reenforces how much of a taboo a priest having any form of sexual pleasure is.

I have no “feelings” about the Catholic Church, beyond what the evidence has shown them to be. And their systematic child abuse, in many countries and for many MANY years, is a matter of public record.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#74

Post by havetocharge »

johnnyo wrote: post #50
havetocharge wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes across as ad hominem-ish. Do their argument and allegation stand on their own or do they not?

The argument doesn’t stand on the merits. They begin their article with the thesis that the school is “withholding awards” from Asian families. When you read what actually happened, the school gave certificates to all student in mid November. One parent is mad because the school didn’t separately notify the parent separately, and they didn’t do it “fast enough” so their kid could list it on an early college admission…

I did not think that the point of the article is to complain about award withholding from Asian students.. although the attribution of race seems misplaced.

I thought the point was about the loss of meritocracy and the redefinition of what it means to fail. And grading work on a 50-100 scale.. you really don't think that's weird?

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#75

Post by johnnyo »

havetocharge wrote: post #74
johnnyo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument doesn’t stand on the merits. They begin their article with the thesis that the school is “withholding awards” from Asian families. When you read what actually happened, the school gave certificates to all student in mid November. One parent is mad because the school didn’t separately notify the parent separately, and they didn’t do it “fast enough” so their kid could list it on an early college admission…

I did not think that the point of the article is to complain about award withholding from Asian students.. although the attribution of race seems misplaced. I thought the point was about the loss of meritocracy and the redefinition of what it means to fail. And grading work on a 50-100 scale.. you really don't think that's weird?

The focus of the article is on a parent complaining they didn’t get notified about a certificate their kid received.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#76

Post by kthejoker2 »

Is there a broader war on merit in our public school system?

Maybe.

Is sending National Merit certificates out a few weeks late evidence of such a conflict?

No.

Does this article come across as a tempest in a teacup, thereby also weakening its argument that there is a broader war on merit?

Yes.

Propagandists would be wise to choose their battles, Chicken Littling every bureaucratic snag or even isolated incident as evidence of a widespread issue creates fatigue.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#77

Post by rayiner »

defrost wrote: post #68
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That summary ignores all the relevant context. Since the 1980s, TJ has been a highly selective public high school. The average test scores there are comparable to several Ivy League colleges. As is common all over the world, TJ’s admissions process was based on standardized testing and grades. This was completely uncontroversial for decades. The National Merit Scholarship is based on a standardized test called the PS…

> That summary ignores all the relevant context. All that you added was not in the article and therefore not in the summary of the thrust of the article. > The story is thus about a deliberate decision by the administration to downplay a certain kind of educational metric It's about results arriving late and then filtering through what is pretty much a universal hand to hand to students that all school suffer through…

> All that you added was not in the article and therefore not in the summary of the thrust of the article.

If I picked up an article in a newspaper in your country about some long running politically contentious issue, would it include years of backstory so I could understand the significance of it with zero background knowledge of the situation?

> It's about results arriving late and then filtering through what is pretty much a universal hand to hand to students that all school suffer through.

TJ isn’t some neighborhood high school. It sends dozens of kids into Ivy League schools and Cal Tech/MIT every year. The administration is like a well oiled machine in making that happen. In fact, taking the National Merit Scholarship test is completely optional, but TJ makes it mandatory for its students. That’s because the school was very proud of the fact that the Washington Post would publish the list, and local schools would have a few each and TJ would have 150+: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2002/11/14/stud....

The National Merit Scholarship results have been distributed to schools the same way for decades. TJ always publicized the results to students promptly (and not by sending an email to some account nobody ever checks). I remember when the results came out my year, it was announced publicly and everyone went to check the list. The fact that TJ downplayed it the last couple of years reflects an ideological change, not some administrative mixup.

> Do you not read your own countries media? Have you not seen the baseless hysteria over trans people, "woke history", etc?

We’re talking about education. Simple question: In your country, do you have people trying to get rid of standardized testing on the theory that it’s “racist?”

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#78

Post by phil21 »

defrost wrote: post #68
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That summary ignores all the relevant context. Since the 1980s, TJ has been a highly selective public high school. The average test scores there are comparable to several Ivy League colleges. As is common all over the world, TJ’s admissions process was based on standardized testing and grades. This was completely uncontroversial for decades. The National Merit Scholarship is based on a standardized test called the PS…

> That summary ignores all the relevant context. All that you added was not in the article and therefore not in the summary of the thrust of the article. > The story is thus about a deliberate decision by the administration to downplay a certain kind of educational metric It's about results arriving late and then filtering through what is pretty much a universal hand to hand to students that all school suffer through…

> The fault lies with the National Merit Scholarship Corporation .. who seem to expect others to do their work for them.

So why was it not a problem previous years, or with other schools?

Sounds like the school decided to "randomly" start playing the whole malicious compliance card to me.

I seriously do not understand anyone who supports this stuff. It's mind boggling and will be the end of US dominance, if not the eventual end of the US itself.

This is just a tiny tale in a giant story that has been going on for decades. The US primary education system has been systematically ripping out merit and high achiever programs in favor of "equity" since at least the 1990's. You cannot read this article and ignore all other context.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#79

Post by cuteboy19 »

defrost wrote: post #68
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That summary ignores all the relevant context. Since the 1980s, TJ has been a highly selective public high school. The average test scores there are comparable to several Ivy League colleges. As is common all over the world, TJ’s admissions process was based on standardized testing and grades. This was completely uncontroversial for decades. The National Merit Scholarship is based on a standardized test called the PS…

> That summary ignores all the relevant context. All that you added was not in the article and therefore not in the summary of the thrust of the article. > The story is thus about a deliberate decision by the administration to downplay a certain kind of educational metric It's about results arriving late and then filtering through what is pretty much a universal hand to hand to students that all school suffer through…

It is very unfortunate that conservatives have thoroughly discredited themselves. Now even when they make reasonable points, people are forced to doubt them. It is a consequence of baseless fear mongering and an unwillingness to take responsibility when those fears predictably do not pan out

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#80

Post by kcplate »

salad-fan wrote: post #72
kcplate wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never said they were independent, I said the conversation was about curriculum and not church scandals. Additionally, although I don’t have the statistics, it would not surprise me one bit if pound for pound, Catholic schools were indeed safer school options for the students than a public schools despite the scandals in the Catholic Church.

The commenter went beyond curriculum with this part of their comment (which has since been edited to remove the word “woke”, I might add): > All of the politics and social justice, whatever you want to call is not part of the curriculum. I feel bad for people whose kids are forced into this nonsense.

I don’t read it thst way at all, and frankly with woke or not it seems to be a valid point in the discussion which centers around that very concept of the administrators and educators possibly placing their thumb on the scale.

And I still don’t see how that is an entrance ramp to trying to shutdown the point they were making by laying some “invalid due to guilt by association”point.

Just my opinion.

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