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Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

nytimes.com

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Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#71

Post by alvah »

lordfrito wrote: post #58
dmix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also can’t think of Effective Altruism without thinking of the inverse radical Objectivism. I don’t agree with Ayn Rand’s amateur philosophizing [1] but it’s a great example of using the Rational vs Altruistic dichotomy for extreme ideological ends. Both just happen to be able to justify the acquisition of infinite capital without typical counter-weights that society puts forward… and inversely to justify authorita…

Interesting insight. Sometimes it seems like the ultra wealthy need some sort of story to tell themselves (and others) as to why they are different, why they have earned and deserve these vast richest, etc. Philosophy more and more seems to be a rich mans game. Wonder if it has anything to do with Imposter Syndrome? As if preaching a philosophy can somehow make up for the ruthlessness (and I have to believe some empt…

Anybody who generates wealth via business ownership is different from most of us - business risk should have at least a chance of reward, otherwise why take the risk? Of course rent-seeking, regulation-gaming & parasitical industries such as finance and real estate muddy the waters, but fundamentally the existence of some number of ultra-rich individuals is a natural outcome of the opportunity to generate wealth via business.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#72

Post by tiahura »

ceejayoz wrote: post #40
jcampbell1 wrote: post #30

In previous discussions, I said there was a 0% chance she got some sort of deal. I was downvoted to hell, but this guilty plea shows how it works in real life, not TV. The deal is you cooperate voluntarily and the court is allowed to provide sentencing leniency. The only thing she gets is the prosecution agrees to tell the court she cooperated.

> The only thing she gets is the prosecution agrees to tell the court she cooperated. That is the deal. It's a cooperating plea deal; prosecutors will accept a much smaller sentence (out of the very wide ranges available) if they follow through on the coperating part.

prosecutors will accept a much smaller sentence

Not sure what you mean there. The prosecution recommends a sentence to the judge. They are agreeing to recommend a shorter sentence than they would have if she fought.

Judges (especially federal) are despots and don’t care at all about prosecutors or what prosecutors want. The judge will want to know exactly how much she blew on bad investments, how much she stole for herself, and how useful her cooperation has been. Then, using the sentencing guidelines and the United States Probation and Pretrial Services Office Presentencing report, the judge will impose a sentence.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#73

Post by agotterer »

mikeyouse wrote: post #24
tiahura wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the size of the fraud one of the major factors in the guidelines? If so, it may not be 110 years, but it’s got to be a big number?

The number does indeed get larger with bigger losses - but most of the charges also have statutory maximums (e.g. 20yrs for wire fraud) and they'll almost certainly be served concurrently. With this level of fraud a sentence approaching 10 years might be in play, but we'll have to see what the prosecutors say.

Elizabeth Holmes was sentenced to 11 years and she didn’t steal any money for personal gain. Madoff was sentenced to 150 years.

Based on what we know so far about Caroline’s misuse (abuse) of funds and possible mass market manipulation all of which has resulted in billions of dollars in investor losses. 10 years in this case seems light, no?

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#74

Post by lolinder »

superkuh wrote: post #19

Nothing here happened on a blockchain. If it had there wouldn't have been problems. This is a typical finance market scam.

> In its complaint, the S.E.C. said Ms. Ellison, under direction from Mr. Bankman-Fried, had manipulated the price of a digital currency that FTX created, called FTT, by buying large quantities to prop up its price. Alameda was one of the major firms that was trading FTT and had used the crypto token as collateral for loans it got from other big crypto firms to fund its trading.

FTT is on the Ethereum Blockchain.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#75

Post by lolinder »

HN_is_for_gemes wrote: post #37
77pt77 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. One-coin fits your description better.

SBF would have scammed with anything instrument, only the media and gov wants you to believe it had anything to do with crypto

If the atmosphere around crypto makes it easy to scam lots of people out of lots of money (which it does), then I think it's absolutely fair to make this story about crypto, if only so that otherwise-naive people who hear the news will think twice before investing in the next big scam.

It's not necessarily that the technology inherently lends itself to scams, but the culture around it absolutely does. A startlingly large percentage of the biggest players in crypto have turned out to be scams, this isn't a one-off thing.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#76

Post by tiahura »

jdminhbg wrote: post #59
maxbond wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people will run scams in crypto the same as they'll run scams in tradfi - shouldn't they be regulated the same, too?

Well they’re being arrested and sent to jail, so that’s a form of regulation.

Not for the crypto though. For ripping off the investors.

Neither the SEC nor the CFTC have authority to regulate crypto.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#77

Post by akerl_ »

lordfrito wrote: post #41

Any ideas why these prosecutions are moving forward so fast? Usually this stuff takes forever as evidence is carefully gathered. Curious if anyone has any insights here.

This is what happens when your top lieutenants flip on you for plea deals and you provide the government piles of evidence by doing continuous media interviews and your attempts to disguise your fraud amount to saying "crypto" while you wave your hands.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#78

Post by chollida1 »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #30

In previous discussions, I said there was a 0% chance she got some sort of deal. I was downvoted to hell, but this guilty plea shows how it works in real life, not TV. The deal is you cooperate voluntarily and the court is allowed to provide sentencing leniency. The only thing she gets is the prosecution agrees to tell the court she cooperated.

> In previous discussions, I said there was a 0% chance she got some sort of deal.

Well that prediction didn't age well. Looks like she got herself a deal.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#79

Post by random314 »

agotterer wrote: post #73
mikeyouse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number does indeed get larger with bigger losses - but most of the charges also have statutory maximums (e.g. 20yrs for wire fraud) and they'll almost certainly be served concurrently. With this level of fraud a sentence approaching 10 years might be in play, but we'll have to see what the prosecutors say.

Elizabeth Holmes was sentenced to 11 years and she didn’t steal any money for personal gain. Madoff was sentenced to 150 years. Based on what we know so far about Caroline’s misuse (abuse) of funds and possible mass market manipulation all of which has resulted in billions of dollars in investor losses. 10 years in this case seems light, no?

Elizabeth did use the money for personal gain, to sponsor an extremely lavish lifestyle and billing luxury home rental expenses,chartered flights, security details and private investigators to the Theranos account.

Sunny Balwani, otoh, didn't benefit, wasn't the CEO, didn't make most of the false statements and got a heavier sentence.

Re: Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF

#80

Post by ceejayoz »

tiahura wrote: post #72
ceejayoz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only thing she gets is the prosecution agrees to tell the court she cooperated. That is the deal. It's a cooperating plea deal; prosecutors will accept a much smaller sentence (out of the very wide ranges available) if they follow through on the coperating part.

prosecutors will accept a much smaller sentence Not sure what you mean there. The prosecution recommends a sentence to the judge. They are agreeing to recommend a shorter sentence than they would have if she fought. Judges (especially federal) are despots and don’t care at all about prosecutors or what prosecutors want. The judge will want to know exactly how much she blew on bad investments, how much she stole for h…

It means they won't do this.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-business-34deb7d885d...

> Prosecutors urged a judge Wednesday to impose a “very substantial” prison sentence on Michael Avenatti for trying to extort millions of dollars from Nike.

> Prosecutors noted in a Manhattan federal court submission that Probation Office officials recommend an eight-year prison term for the California attorney who gained fame three years ago through his representation of porn star Stormy Daniels against then-President Donald Trump.

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