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The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

city-journal.org

41–50 of 162 posts

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#41
post #5

"Equal outcomes for every student" I'm genuinely curious what this is supposed to mean. Every student gets into the same university? They all get the same job at the exact same salary upon graduation? What is the real-world consequence of this policy supposed to be? If your outcome as a student is guaranteed to be equal to every other student's outcome, what is the incentive to work harder? Outcomes being equal doesn…

This 22 second youtube video is the supporting evidence linked by the article for that "equal outcomes for every student" line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujpcvIsMZBU So, your guess is as good as mine, because that video certainly is not some kind of school policy position, as the article implies. I'm pretty suspect of the rest of it, since as someone else pointed out, the school actually did notify the students…

> and I mean, it's from a Federalist byline...

Good point.

I'm not from or in the US (although I frequently work in or with USAians) and it's just astonishing how much of the US Federalist | Conservative pieces lack any kind of policy substance -- the media from that side of the aisle seems almost entirely focused on raising dust in the air over trite matters of near zero import.

I like fiscal responsibility and a lot of principles that these groups supposedly stand for - but the culture war obsession of the US right is just performative.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#43

All of this stuff is just so hilariously nonsense. Dude, some people have to lose. We can shuffle as much as we want, we can probably make them perfectly distributed amongst races, sexes, heights, weights, whatever. But there will still be a shit ton of losers. It's just how the world works. You can't have 8 billion flying Tesla electric private jets to Malibu.

The thing people can't handle with this is that intelligence tends to be heritable* so the more intelligent workers you need the smaller and more racily similar the successful group is going to be which runs directly contrary to the currently popular world view. *It's influenced by other things too of course. Once you hit a (fairly low) limit it's going to start skewing more and more male. Upbringing is a huge part o…

The basic thrust of this comment is correct. Coastal elites can't stomach the fact that people are different. Some are smart, some are not. And there are observable regularities in who's smart and who's not. That's just how it is.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#44

All of this stuff is just so hilariously nonsense. Dude, some people have to lose. We can shuffle as much as we want, we can probably make them perfectly distributed amongst races, sexes, heights, weights, whatever. But there will still be a shit ton of losers. It's just how the world works. You can't have 8 billion flying Tesla electric private jets to Malibu.

The thing some people don't seem to get is, it's not that there will be losers, it's that the losers are a liability to society, so we need to minimize "losing" as much as possible.

Certainly not by gifting people stuff, but buy gifting them education.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#46
post #5

"Equal outcomes for every student" I'm genuinely curious what this is supposed to mean. Every student gets into the same university? They all get the same job at the exact same salary upon graduation? What is the real-world consequence of this policy supposed to be? If your outcome as a student is guaranteed to be equal to every other student's outcome, what is the incentive to work harder? Outcomes being equal doesn…

This 22 second youtube video is the supporting evidence linked by the article for that "equal outcomes for every student" line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujpcvIsMZBU So, your guess is as good as mine, because that video certainly is not some kind of school policy position, as the article implies. I'm pretty suspect of the rest of it, since as someone else pointed out, the school actually did notify the students…

I went to TJ and grew up in northern VA. When I was there the announcement was made publicly and distributed to everyone. I’m not sure if we had a school district email account back then but that’s not how it was communicated, nor was it communicated by private letter.

Yes this is part of the culture war, but that’s not a reason to dismiss it out of hand. Everyone in this story was a democrat until 2015. Around then a subset of mostly white Democrats discovered racism still exists and completely lost their minds about it. My parents think what’s happening at TJ is nuts and I couldn’t even get them to vote for Larry Hogan.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#47
post #17

The opening paragraphs seem to imply that the awards were withheld based on race. When you get into the meat of the article, though, it makes it more clear that the school just forwarded a paper cert to the kids, and didn’t make a big deal about it. And parents are complaining because the school didn’t make a big deal out of it or get it to students “fast enough” to apply for some early admission stuff. It’s been a w…

Yeah, this is internally self-contradictory. I quote:

But homeroom teachers didn’t distribute the awards until Monday, November 14, after the early-application deadlines had passed. Teachers dropped the certificates unceremoniously on students’ desks.

“Keeping these certificates from students is theft by the state,” says Yashar.

... so they did get distributed, albeit without much ceremony. Also, that's in plenty of time for scholarship applications, so "Recognition by National Merit opens the door to millions of dollars in college scholarships and 800 Special Scholarships from corporate sponsors" is a bit of a non-sequitur.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#48
post #2

Interesting this school had or has a controversial admissions policy. I also recognize that Harvard’s at the Supreme Court. I genuinely do not understand the logic behind what is essentially skin-color diversity. ( https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/04/court-allows-elite-virgin... )

The logic is straight-forward. Whether it is necessary, correct, or advantageous, depends largely on your circumstances and personal put look.

A) historically a number of groups have been disadvantaged.

B) this has lead to those groups "falling behind" advantaged groups from a wealth perspective. [side bar - wealth begets wealth, while poverty begets poverty, and while it is possible to rise up it is hard]

C) since it is easier to get good grades when you have money, it's more impressive to get good, but not necessarily top, grades from a different starting point. Thus the route, not just the result, should be considered when reviewing applications.

D) thus admitence with "just grade scores" tends to favor those groups with money, which would result in a largely hermogenous student body.

E) education extends beyond just knowledge. The goal is to turn out adults who will function well in a society as a whole, get good jobs, add value to the community, and do on.

F) in modern times it is considered poor form, or worse, to exhibit bad speech or behavior patterns. You can no longer behave like your great-grandfather, you can no longer speak like your grandfather. To do so will harm your prospects.

G) thus, in order to become better human beings, its good to rub shoulders with those of different social, financial, gender, ability levels. In the safety of a school environment everyone can better be taught, and practice, the social norms of the day.

H) thus a diverse student body is good for all students. Previously disadvantaged groups get a leg up. Currently advantaged groups get to interact with those dissimilar to themselves, and thus improve those interaction skills.

US society likes to believe that "hard work" is the secret to financial position. But hard work itself is hard to measure, so we measure grades instead. However grades are more a function of current economic status, not work, and if anything reflect the hard work of the parents, not the students. There are various tools used to try and improve the proxy measure, things like diversity quotas and so on.

Of course imperfect improvements to imperfect proxies still result in contraversy since the system is still flawed. And naturally those most disadvantaged by the rules feel the sting the most.

None of this explains or excuses the behaviour of the school in with-holding these results though. The logic behind that is strange. Why would a top quality school, with a diverse student body, look to prejudice the ability of those students to get good college positions?

I can see some logic in not making a public song and dance about it, but surely all students, and their parents, should be notified as soon as possible?

On the up side, the fact this is "news" at all suggests this is a very uncommon practice.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#49
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 22 second youtube video is the supporting evidence linked by the article for that "equal outcomes for every student" line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujpcvIsMZBU So, your guess is as good as mine, because that video certainly is not some kind of school policy position, as the article implies. I'm pretty suspect of the rest of it, since as someone else pointed out, the school actually did notify the students…

> and I mean, it's from a Federalist byline... Good point. I'm not from or in the US (although I frequently work in or with USAians) and it's just astonishing how much of the US Federalist | Conservative pieces lack any kind of policy substance -- the media from that side of the aisle seems almost entirely focused on raising dust in the air over trite matters of near zero import. I like fiscal responsibility and a lo…

This article concerns the metrics we use to decide how to advance kids into advanced educational opportunities. How is that a “trite matter of near zero import?”

I think your view of the conservative reaction may be colored by the fact that you don’t have the other side of this culture war wherever you are in Europe or Asia. To my knowledge, elite high schools in Germany or China aren’t abandoning objective metrics like grades and test scores on the theory that those things are “racist.” Heck, Germany and France don’t even track outcomes by race the way Americans do obsessively.

Re: The war on merit takes a bizarre turn

#50

[flagged]

This comes across as ad hominem-ish. Do their argument and allegation stand on their own or do they not?

The argument doesn’t stand on the merits.

They begin their article with the thesis that the school is “withholding awards” from Asian families.

When you read what actually happened, the school gave certificates to all student in mid November.

One parent is mad because the school didn’t separately notify the parent separately, and they didn’t do it “fast enough” so their kid could list it on an early college admission.

On its merits, the argument falls apart under analysis of the data.

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