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The Decline of the City Grid

economist.com

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Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#161

Post by msla »

ericmay wrote: post #150
msla wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Roads are a 'soft grid' for pedestrians and cyclists but stopped up for cars How do emergency vehicles get in and out? If a doctor is called in to an emergency, walking or biking is too slow. How do they get to the case?

> How do emergency vehicles get in and out? They just do. And they do it more easily because they don’t have to fight car traffic to do it. > If a doctor is called in to an emergency, walking or biking is too slow. How do they get to the case? In America you’re looking at a 20+ minute drive for any physician so they are already at the hospital or it takes just as long if not longer to drive to the hospital in a typic…

> They just do.

On roads where motor vehicles aren't allowed? On roads blockaded so motor vehicles can't access?

That's what "stopped up for cars" means.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#162

Post by msla »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #133
msla wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Roads are a 'soft grid' for pedestrians and cyclists but stopped up for cars How do emergency vehicles get in and out? If a doctor is called in to an emergency, walking or biking is too slow. How do they get to the case?

I just went to Houten on google maps. In that area I couldn't come up with a route between two points that took longer than 10 minutes by car. And that was by trying to find the two most inconvenient points in the town. I don't know if Houten has this feature but there are often movable bollards that allow emergency vehicles to take shortcuts. From their centrally located public health center, I couldn't find a locat…

> I don't know if Houten has this feature but there are often movable bollards that allow emergency vehicles to take shortcuts.

Doctors don't drive emergency vehicles, they drive their own cars.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#163

Post by jaccarmac »

gpvos wrote: post #75

A thing about North-American cul-de-sac suburbs that I don't understand is why there are no footpaths to take shortcuts between the dead-end streets. That would make them much less hostile to pedestrians, would allow you to visit neighbours more easily, and it seems to me that you don't lose anything. Is it just an oversight or is there some reason for that? It should even increase social safety: always an escape rou…

I live in a suburb north of Dallas and on a short walk can see footpaths at the end of cul-de-sacs, former paths walled off with bushes, and former paths walled off with brick. The places where you can see the old sidewalk under the brick wall are particularly sad, I think. Speculatively, I agree with the people who have commented on the hostility to "undesirables". Here, I think road expansion is at play, too. As the streets these cul-de-sacs face become 4+ lane 45 MPH roads, the walls become necessary to manage road noise and walking down said road becomes more and more unpleasant. Notably, the brick walls are consistently and obviously low quality, and tend to fall apart until they eventually break at the bottom, sag, collapse, and are replaced. It's a pattern I only saw when I moved here (though I was never properly suburban before that).

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#164

Post by ericmay »

msla wrote: post #161
ericmay wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do emergency vehicles get in and out? They just do. And they do it more easily because they don’t have to fight car traffic to do it. > If a doctor is called in to an emergency, walking or biking is too slow. How do they get to the case? In America you’re looking at a 20+ minute drive for any physician so they are already at the hospital or it takes just as long if not longer to drive to the hospital in a typic…

> They just do. On roads where motor vehicles aren't allowed? On roads blockaded so motor vehicles can't access? That's what "stopped up for cars" means.

It’s just not a problem. And even if it were a problem it pales in comparison to the deaths and societal cost to driving. You’re thinking about 99.99999% problems and sacrificing common problems (kids being run over etc.).

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#165

Post by hammock »

burlesona wrote: post #66

The article says that governments began “encouraging” curvy streets and dead ends, but that’s understating things. The FDR administration effectively banned grids by requiring curvilinear streets for new developments to qualify for the new federally subsidized 30-year mortgages (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac), aka what we think of now as a “normal mortgage.” It’s hard to compete with a heavy government subsidy, so other…

I’ve never heard this and am fascinated. Where can I read more?

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#166

Post by SyzygistSix »

mattlondon wrote: post #117
twelvechairs wrote: post #8

The big recent exemplar of street layout for a new place is Houten in the netherlands [0] which is basically focussed on a train station and walkable town square at the centre with a ring road at the edge. Roads are a 'soft grid' for pedestrians and cyclists but stopped up for cars making the car network more of a tree with dead ends rather than a grid. And making road speeds slow at the centre and fast at the edges.…

Check out Stevenage in the UK. It ain't no paradise. It has what appears to be identical segregated cycleways and has done for 60+ years now ( https://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/wp-content/uploads/... ), yet cycle usage is less than 3% despite the town being literally designed around and built with cycleways from day 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevenage

I live in a progressive/liberal town that has good roads and weather for cycling. Very few people seem interested, even young people without kids. I just don't understand why it is so unpopular and undesirable.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#167

Post by rurp »

markfenton wrote: post #87
gpvos wrote: post #75

A thing about North-American cul-de-sac suburbs that I don't understand is why there are no footpaths to take shortcuts between the dead-end streets. That would make them much less hostile to pedestrians, would allow you to visit neighbours more easily, and it seems to me that you don't lose anything. Is it just an oversight or is there some reason for that? It should even increase social safety: always an escape rou…

There is a view held by some that they actually decrease safety by providing somewhere for undesirables to loiter, or a means of escape after committing crime, or simply attract more foot traffic to an area than a cul-de-sac therfore increasing the chance of opportunistic crime. I suspect this is a situation where the benefits of the shortcuts to society may be greater than the possible downsides to the nearby homeow…

I bet you're right on what's driving this. The last two houses I have lived in are very close to each other, but one is on a quiet culdesac while the other is on a through street convenient for foot traffic. There is definitely a small but noticeable difference in the amount of crime and sketchy behavior between the two. This bums me out though, because I would much rather live in a more walkable community, even with the tradeoffs. Unfortunately many Americans feel differently.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#168

Post by BLKNSLVR »

msla wrote: post #162
dghlsakjg wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just went to Houten on google maps. In that area I couldn't come up with a route between two points that took longer than 10 minutes by car. And that was by trying to find the two most inconvenient points in the town. I don't know if Houten has this feature but there are often movable bollards that allow emergency vehicles to take shortcuts. From their centrally located public health center, I couldn't find a locat…

> I don't know if Houten has this feature but there are often movable bollards that allow emergency vehicles to take shortcuts. Doctors don't drive emergency vehicles, they drive their own cars.

(In my experience) Doctors also don't get called out to a specific accident site; that's what Ambulances (and emergency vehicles) are for.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#169

Post by madcaptenor »

terribleperson wrote: post #115
madcaptenor wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one? Seriously, a few days ago I actually did a four-mile drive that at one point had me take Peachtree Industrial Boulevard to North Peachtree Road to Peachtree Road, and ended on New Peachtree Road. I didn't do this because I wanted to drive on lots of roads named Peachtree, I just wanted some ma po tofu.

Where'd you get your mapo tofu? I like what I get from S.H. Spicy Garden, but I'm open to trying somewhere new.

Chong Qing Hot Pot, in the Chinatown food court.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#170

Post by yosito »

twelvechairs wrote: post #8

The big recent exemplar of street layout for a new place is Houten in the netherlands [0] which is basically focussed on a train station and walkable town square at the centre with a ring road at the edge. Roads are a 'soft grid' for pedestrians and cyclists but stopped up for cars making the car network more of a tree with dead ends rather than a grid. And making road speeds slow at the centre and fast at the edges.…

More than half of Houten residents use a car to buy groceries? That seems absurd. One of the things I love about living in Europe is that I can walk to small grocery shops within a block of where I live, so I can do many small trips during the week rather than a big weekly trip, and that way I eat fresher food every day.
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