Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Decline of the City Grid

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 212 posts

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#31

Post by davidw »

beej71 wrote: post #5

[freewheeling unplanned thinking-out-loud ahead] I like grids... but I'm not sure why. I live at the edge of the old grid section in my town. West of me, it turns into modern non-grid. Which I don't like. But do I not like it because of the lack of grid? Or because of the new modern wall-to-wall cookie-cutter construction? I look at an old organically-grown city and it's fascinating to me; its ties to the distant pas…

This might look familiar to you, beej: https://bendyimby.com/2018/03/03/street-grids/ - goes into some of why grids are good.

'Cookie cutter' construction has a bad reputation, BTW, but cookie cutters are how you get lots of cheap cookies, which a lot of places need right now.

The problem is where you don't allow those areas to adapt and change over time, by, say, turning one lot into a corner store or a small cafe or people to adapt their houses over time so they take on their own unique character.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#32

Post by bee_rider »

How do you even give directions in Chicago? It seems horribly confusing — go down the straight road, once you’ve passed 15 intersections turn left blah blah. No way to keep track of that kind of junk.

Boston is much easier to navigate and get direction, go until you hit the triangular intersection, take the left branch, you’ll eventually find a rotary has brushed up on your road, take that etc etc. Each intersection should endeavor to be a unique, memorable point!

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#33

Post by barnabee »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #25
barnabee wrote: post #20

I like a city I can get lost in. Grids seem like an anti-pattern to me.

I like to be able to navigate to a location I've never been just by knowing the address. Grids with numbered streets and avenues are my favorite.

I see the appeal but it's not for me.

If I need to get somewhere, I have maps and apps and GPS.

Spending a day in a city with no agenda, meandering without a constant reminder of where I am relative to where I started or where I might someday be is much more interesting and rewarding IMO.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#34

Post by davidw »

barnabee wrote: post #30
davidw wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to Venice, Italy if you want to get lost. Grids are the best way to lay out a city so you don't end up with ridiculous burbs like this where it's a 1.5 mile walk between adjacent lots. https://bendyimby.com/2018/03/03/street-grids/ There are far worse examples of that elsewhere in the country. Grids are also very robust to interruptions - like you remove an intersection (a crash, sewer work, whatever) and it slows…

These things sound efficient and productive , but I don't think that makes them better.

At the end of the day, it's better for people, too, to live in a place that can grow and adapt, where they can walk to a coffee shop, or ride their bikes on a quieter side street instead of being shunted into a nasty collector street with deadly 40mph traffic.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#35

Post by anon291 »

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #13
beej71 wrote: post #5

[freewheeling unplanned thinking-out-loud ahead] I like grids... but I'm not sure why. I live at the edge of the old grid section in my town. West of me, it turns into modern non-grid. Which I don't like. But do I not like it because of the lack of grid? Or because of the new modern wall-to-wall cookie-cutter construction? I look at an old organically-grown city and it's fascinating to me; its ties to the distant pas…

Exactly, grids are not perfect, but they are much much better than modern non-grid. Modern non-grid is not made for people, it is made for cars, and is incompatible with walking. More specifically, it is the result of optimizing for the wrong thing, it optimizes for getting cars from their houses to the highway and back, sacrificing all local connection and mobility in the process.

They're not even made for cars. With the non-grids in many suburbs, you have to drive for more than five minutes just to reach something that ought to be a two minute walk or a 30 second drive. Endless cul-de-sacs and branches make it unfriendly to everything.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#36

Post by bombcar »

nkrisc wrote: post #21
beej71 wrote: post #5

[freewheeling unplanned thinking-out-loud ahead] I like grids... but I'm not sure why. I live at the edge of the old grid section in my town. West of me, it turns into modern non-grid. Which I don't like. But do I not like it because of the lack of grid? Or because of the new modern wall-to-wall cookie-cutter construction? I look at an old organically-grown city and it's fascinating to me; its ties to the distant pas…

You've inspired me as well to ramble about why grids are great. Growing up in Chicago, I have a deep love of the grid. It made sense, it made navigation easy. It made addresses have real meaning . Take the address of the Vic Theater, for example: 3145 N Sheffield. It tells you just about everything you need to know. It tells you that Sheffield is a North/South street. Because it's an odd number it tells you the build…

Seattle’s grid is similarly informative with additional information just from the numbered street name.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#37

Post by spikeagally »

rhdunn wrote: post #9
spikeagally wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think knowledge of the city is still much better than relying on GPS. The gap may have narrowed significantly but I'd still rather by driven by someone who knows the streets. One example I regularly encounter is Uber drivers following GPS down these extremely narrow (6ft I believe) bollard lined connecting roads. They are easily avoided if you know the area but every Uber driver will take them while we both hold ou…

There was a recent Tom Scott video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmWREtcDVBE ) where he was using a GPS and Tom Hutley (a London cabbie) only relied on his London knowledge to get around, travelling the same distance after reaching certain landmarks. It was interesting to watch.

That was really interesting, thanks for sharing.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#38

Post by bernawil »

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #13
beej71 wrote: post #5

[freewheeling unplanned thinking-out-loud ahead] I like grids... but I'm not sure why. I live at the edge of the old grid section in my town. West of me, it turns into modern non-grid. Which I don't like. But do I not like it because of the lack of grid? Or because of the new modern wall-to-wall cookie-cutter construction? I look at an old organically-grown city and it's fascinating to me; its ties to the distant pas…

Exactly, grids are not perfect, but they are much much better than modern non-grid. Modern non-grid is not made for people, it is made for cars, and is incompatible with walking. More specifically, it is the result of optimizing for the wrong thing, it optimizes for getting cars from their houses to the highway and back, sacrificing all local connection and mobility in the process.

it's the other way around.

Grids are made for cars. And buses, trucks (garbage trucks too), semis. They are ok at moving vehicles from houses to the highway, but you can walk them too.

Non-grids are for people and (few) cars. They are intentionally designed to discourage non-residents from driving through them. They optimize for selling the maximum amount of land and delivering the minimum conveniently drivable surface so other people don't drive near your house but you can go drive through theirs.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#39

Post by tengbretson »

I'm not a big fan of modern, winding, cul-de-sac housing developments, but one upside to their layout that I rarely see addressed is that due to the fact that the layout starts with such a strict distinction between the major connecting roads and the winding residential roads means that you will never find yourself 15 years down the road facing eminent domain from the city taking 20 feet from the front of your property because they decided the once quite road on the grid you are on now needs to expand into a major roadway.

Re: The Decline of the City Grid

#40

Post by _dain_ »

davidw wrote: post #24
barnabee wrote: post #20

I like a city I can get lost in. Grids seem like an anti-pattern to me.

Go to Venice, Italy if you want to get lost. Grids are the best way to lay out a city so you don't end up with ridiculous burbs like this where it's a 1.5 mile walk between adjacent lots. https://bendyimby.com/2018/03/03/street-grids/ There are far worse examples of that elsewhere in the country. Grids are also very robust to interruptions - like you remove an intersection (a crash, sewer work, whatever) and it slows…

>Grids are the best way to lay out a city so you don't end up with ridiculous burbs like this where it's a 1.5 mile walk between adjacent lots.

That's an extreme example. "Non-grid" isn't a proper category, there are lots of ways of organizing streets that aren't regular grids. The important feature is permeability and alternative routes, not rectilinear structure as such.

Sprawl suburb layout is bad because it goes out of its way to limit the number of alternate routes. Literally goes out of its way -- the roads twist and turn like a space-filling curve, often with all traffic funneled into just a few entrances/exits from the development onto the larger road network. That doesn't happen by accident, it's planned that way, to limit through-traffic that residents have to endure (meanwhile they impose through-traffic on everyone else who doesn't live in those developments). Whereas organic non-grid layouts still have plenty of redundancy. Check out the street pattern of London or Manchester or any British city that isn't Milton Keynes.

The geometric advantage of grids is most acute at the smaller scales: they maximize the amount of area that is within walking distance of any given point. Public transport stops, shops, schools, etc.

Post reply on HN