Live data from Hacker News

‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

theguardian.com

91–100 of 187 posts

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#91

Interesting thread on why it's not possible for the solar panels to be self cleaned: https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1590736220199735296?c...

Who decided to anthropomorphize the rover like that? It’s creepy and honestly scientifically dishonest, like the rover has intelligence and is writing the posts. Something for children, but children hate being fooled like that and being talked down to. It’s something I might expect from the current version of NASA though.

I don't find it any more disturbing than buying car tires from the Michelin tire guy (he's actually called Bibendum) or getting batteries with the Duracell Bunny on them. Some people, even educated and technically inclined people, like their tech a little anthropomorphised.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems a bit shortsighted to me. Given that if they avoid a catastrophic failure before landing these things seems to consistently last beyond the originally planned mission, they should be building them with mission extensions in mind. Not putting all your eggs in one basket of course. Shit happens and probes are still lost even today. But a simple device to remove dust such as a vibration function, a small blower fa…

You're assuming that there's funding for an extended mission, or that said funding wouldn't be better used on other initiatives, or even within the mission that the opportunity cost is worth it. At the end of the day the best way to ensure mission success is to put the mission first, not future missions, not "nice to haves", put every dollar you have into making the prescribed mission as perfect as possible. You're s…

Show me a Mars rover that was still functioning but didn't get a mission extension so was just left to do nothing and decay. I doubt you will. If they are still working they are practically guaranteed a mission extension because the cost of continuing to operate a rover that you have already placed on mars and paid for is marginal relative to the mission. The most expensive part is designing and building the probe and then getting it there.

>At the end of the day the best way to ensure mission success is to put the mission first, not future missions, not "nice to haves", put every dollar you have into making the prescribed mission as perfect as possible. You're suggesting the equivalent of "Navy SEALs sometimes get caught in larger than expected firefights, so each man should lug an extra 1000 rounds of spare ammo into combat just in case". And they could, but that would slow them down and endanger the immediate mission, even if only slightly.

That's a massive exaggeration. I am not advocating for a contingency to every possible failure mode. I am pointing out that we clearly have one very common failure mode that can be solved and likely get us far more utility for little investment.

If you are going to compare it to Navy Seals, what I am suggesting is more akin to "Navy Seals can get shot. That's not good and these are highly trained specialists that don't grow on trees, we should probably give them body armor to give them a chance to survive being shot." And we do give them body armor. Yes it adds weight. Yes it costs more money. But more come home to complete more missions.

Yes a mechanical solution to remove dust from panels adds weight and cost but it can be the difference between an otherwise functional probe dying one day due to low power or dying years later once its electronics fail.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#93

Interesting thread on why it's not possible for the solar panels to be self cleaned: https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1590736220199735296?c...

After reading your note "why it's not possible for the solar panels to be self cleaned" I clicked through and as I clicked I was thinking "okay so obviously it is possible for the solar panels to self-clean. prove me wrong." I mean how hard could it be? No way is that an "impossible" task. I went out of it thinking, "yep, look at these excuses we are making for the state of robotics." - the quote is: "A system like t…

This is more about "What are you willing to bet the mission on". The mission being a billions of dollars and years of effort. And mission success is defined as working for a limited time. In aerospace "simple" beats "slightly more complex but much better" often.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#94
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windshield wipers add weight and complexity but more importantly add to the budget. These things are designed only to serve the mission. This rover was designed to last 1 year and went for 4 so it’s a pretty good result. Some good discussion here [1] on Astronomy Cast regarding this topic and potential solutions NASA is working on. Such as an electrostatic dust blaster. 1. https://podcasts.apple.com/vu/podcast/astron…

But why windshield wipers? The panels look like they extended somehow, so why can't we simply retract them so that enough dust falls off?

> so why can't we simply retract them so that enough dust falls off?

Thus scratching the delicate surfaces of the panels, as well as requiring a retraction motor and associated devices that have their own failure modes.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#95

Interesting thread on why it's not possible for the solar panels to be self cleaned: https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1590736220199735296?c...

I don't see that thread claiming that it's not possible, just that it wasn't the most practical choice for this particular rover.

It's possible for the solar panels on rovers to be self-cleaning, but it's not possible for the solar panels specifically on Insight to be self-cleaned.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#96

"I’m afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it."

My windows shutdown noise was "Daisy... Dai...sssyyyyyyy" for only a few days

Too uncanny

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#98
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windshield wipers add weight and complexity but more importantly add to the budget. These things are designed only to serve the mission. This rover was designed to last 1 year and went for 4 so it’s a pretty good result. Some good discussion here [1] on Astronomy Cast regarding this topic and potential solutions NASA is working on. Such as an electrostatic dust blaster. 1. https://podcasts.apple.com/vu/podcast/astron…

But why windshield wipers? The panels look like they extended somehow, so why can't we simply retract them so that enough dust falls off?

I believe the answer is that a brushing mechanism would scrape the glass, and some of the dust gets adhered due to static electricity. I've also heard speculation that diminishing returns are a significant concern when it comes to a dust removal mechanism because of the reasons above.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#99

Relevant. https://xkcd.com/695/

I hate this particular strip (not xkcd of course (which is 60% of the time wonderful) but this specific one).

It anthropomorphises the Rover and we have enough sad news from all over the place to also start to worry about that machine (not even an AI). The next one will be Voyager who is all alone in empty space or whatnot. It is enough that I speak to my computer already.

Re: ‘My power’s low’: NASA’s Insight Mars lander prepares to sign off

#100
post #5

I'm confused on why the end state for all these rovers is to loose power because of dust on the solar cells. They did such a good job engineering these things to survive the trip and the conditions in general, but they can't give them "windshield wipers for dust"? Seems like with that minor upgrade they could have much longer lifespan. Can someone enlighten me?

Some kind of passive self-cleaning solar-cell cover might work. You could direct and shape the wind so it blows more strongly over the cell surface to clean it, or since the dust is charged[1] you might use a conductive layer with the same charge. (Although I'm sure engineers have thought long and hard about this already.) [1] Moon, but similar: https://youtu.be/0k9wIsKKgqo?t=378

An infinite loop of transparent film, similar to what the in-car F1 cameras have?

Edit: huh, apparently it is one-time use and does not loop around.

Post reply on HN